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	<title>Comments on: The REAL cost of automobile dependency</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/</link>
	<description>Better Transport for the 21st Century</description>
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		<title>By: kevyn</title>
		<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kevyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/?p=113#comment-22</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jarbury, I seems we agree that spending on highway and railway works will be equally effective at directly creating jobs. 

During a depression maintaining local roads does have the advantage of creating jobs where the unemployed live, unlike the Great Depression road schemes in this country that built &#039;scenic drives&#039; in remote locations. Highway and railway works are less likely to be spread around in the same useful way as local road works. 

The point you seem to have missed from my previous comment is that the operational employment that flows from building new PT routes will also occur when building new highway routes as a consequence of the induced traffic effect. Where new railways need new drivers, new station staff and new signals and train maintenance staff, the induced new traffic from new highways will need new mechanics, new panel beaters, new brakepad and tyre fitters, etc. Assuming, of course, that the majority of vehicles are serviced at the recommended km intervals rather than at the recommended time interval.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jarbury, I seems we agree that spending on highway and railway works will be equally effective at directly creating jobs. </p>
<p>During a depression maintaining local roads does have the advantage of creating jobs where the unemployed live, unlike the Great Depression road schemes in this country that built &#8216;scenic drives&#8217; in remote locations. Highway and railway works are less likely to be spread around in the same useful way as local road works. </p>
<p>The point you seem to have missed from my previous comment is that the operational employment that flows from building new PT routes will also occur when building new highway routes as a consequence of the induced traffic effect. Where new railways need new drivers, new station staff and new signals and train maintenance staff, the induced new traffic from new highways will need new mechanics, new panel beaters, new brakepad and tyre fitters, etc. Assuming, of course, that the majority of vehicles are serviced at the recommended km intervals rather than at the recommended time interval.</p>
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		<title>By: jarbury</title>
		<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jarbury]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/?p=113#comment-19</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Highway maintenance is quite labour intensive, but then so is rail maintenance. Highway construction is unlikely to be any more (or less) labour intensive than rail construction.

So I guess the difference in &quot;jobs creation&quot; comes down to the bus and train drivers, and all the other jobs that are created in a public transport system. Not the MAIN advantage of public transport, but in times like we have at the moment certainly not something to completely ignore.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Highway maintenance is quite labour intensive, but then so is rail maintenance. Highway construction is unlikely to be any more (or less) labour intensive than rail construction.</p>
<p>So I guess the difference in &#8220;jobs creation&#8221; comes down to the bus and train drivers, and all the other jobs that are created in a public transport system. Not the MAIN advantage of public transport, but in times like we have at the moment certainly not something to completely ignore.</p>
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		<title>By: kevyn</title>
		<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kevyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/?p=113#comment-18</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The reasons for this are obvious, that public transport creates many long-term jobs for bus and train drivers, for those maintaining stations and so forth. Roads construction is very capital intensive, but not actually that labour intensive, so therefore not a particularly efficient way to provide jobs and real economic stimulus.&quot;

There is a flaw to this part of the argument. New roads induce more traffic thereby creating many long-term jobs for those maintaining and panelbeating cars and so forth. 

Road and rail works that are primarily concrete pours are very capital intensive, but not actually that labour intensive. That is one good reason for not throwing huge amounts of money at major new urban infrastructure such as the CBD tunnel or Waterview connection, even if either project was &#039;shovel ready&#039;. Fortunately ordinary highways in this country are built with flexible pavements so construction accounts for a much smaller proportion of life-cycle costs than is the case for the concrete pavements typicaly used in the USA and maintenance accounts for a much higher proportion of life-cycle costs.

If the objective is to funnel funding into shovel ready transport projects to stimulate unskilled and semi-skilled employment then catching up on maintenance backlogs is the obvious area where the money needs to be spent. Unfortunately no politician has ever made a name for themselves by ensuring that public assets are properly maintained, they all want a monument that they think will make their name immortal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The reasons for this are obvious, that public transport creates many long-term jobs for bus and train drivers, for those maintaining stations and so forth. Roads construction is very capital intensive, but not actually that labour intensive, so therefore not a particularly efficient way to provide jobs and real economic stimulus.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is a flaw to this part of the argument. New roads induce more traffic thereby creating many long-term jobs for those maintaining and panelbeating cars and so forth. </p>
<p>Road and rail works that are primarily concrete pours are very capital intensive, but not actually that labour intensive. That is one good reason for not throwing huge amounts of money at major new urban infrastructure such as the CBD tunnel or Waterview connection, even if either project was &#8216;shovel ready&#8217;. Fortunately ordinary highways in this country are built with flexible pavements so construction accounts for a much smaller proportion of life-cycle costs than is the case for the concrete pavements typicaly used in the USA and maintenance accounts for a much higher proportion of life-cycle costs.</p>
<p>If the objective is to funnel funding into shovel ready transport projects to stimulate unskilled and semi-skilled employment then catching up on maintenance backlogs is the obvious area where the money needs to be spent. Unfortunately no politician has ever made a name for themselves by ensuring that public assets are properly maintained, they all want a monument that they think will make their name immortal.</p>
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		<title>By: jarbury</title>
		<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jarbury]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 09:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/?p=113#comment-15</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t worry apl I certainly won&#039;t be forgetting this information. It would have made for a good submission on the Government Policy Statement for transport. Oh well.... some might be useful for ARTA&#039;s Auckland Transport Plan hearings that are coming up I suppose.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t worry apl I certainly won&#8217;t be forgetting this information. It would have made for a good submission on the Government Policy Statement for transport. Oh well&#8230;. some might be useful for ARTA&#8217;s Auckland Transport Plan hearings that are coming up I suppose.</p>
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		<title>By: Cam</title>
		<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 08:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/?p=113#comment-14</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good point - I&#039;ve categorised this post as an article so it turns up under that menu.  I&#039;ve also tagged it so it should be easy to find again using the &quot;tag cloud&quot; on the bottom left hand side.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point &#8211; I&#8217;ve categorised this post as an article so it turns up under that menu.  I&#8217;ve also tagged it so it should be easy to find again using the &#8220;tag cloud&#8221; on the bottom left hand side.</p>
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		<title>By: apl</title>
		<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/comment-page-1/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[apl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 07:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/?p=113#comment-13</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It might be a good idea to draw these points into a PDF and post them on the CFBT web site because this post will get lost in time and these are really good facts to point to.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might be a good idea to draw these points into a PDF and post them on the CFBT web site because this post will get lost in time and these are really good facts to point to.</p>
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		<title>By: Cam</title>
		<link>http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/2009/04/the-real-cost-of-automobile-dependency/comment-page-1/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 23:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/?p=113#comment-12</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brilliant points, all of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant points, all of them.</p>
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