Here comes Hop

[kaiwhara]

Radio NZ are reporting the Transport Minister could order NZ Bus off the road in Auckland if they miss the deadline to make Snapper (real)Hop compatable. Trying to find print confirmation of this...

[odaikorob]

Nick, in Japan, the system of JR East SUICA card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suica) and that of the PASMO card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PASMO) used by the myriad of private railway and bus companies in the Kanto region, are fully interoperable and given that the fare tables of JR East and each private line / bus companies are quite different and no cross subsidy takes place anywhere, I dont see why ferries in AKL, cannot be part of the HOP system. Financial reconciliation has always been successful between The JR Group and all private rail line and bus routes they interconnect with, even before PASMO and SUICA were introduced. Seems to me that AKL would do well to mirror what happens in Japan by putting in place a set of robust financial reconciliation procedures between the ferry operators and AT.

[greenwelly]

Radio NZ are reporting the Transport Minister could order NZ Bus off the road in Auckland if they miss the deadline to make Snapper (real)Hop compatable. Trying to find print confirmation of this...

EDIT: here is the RNZ item, nothing new just the same threat
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/108829/bus-ticketing-hitch-in-auckland

He has said this before, so it is not totally new, just a reiteration...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/transport/news/article.cfm?c_id=97&objectid=10804745

Asked what those consequences would be, he told the Herald: "They're off the run."

[Andrew]

If you think about it this way then for AT to include ferries in integrated fares they would have to deregister those commercial services and force them under the subsidised service arrangements, and then start cross subsidising ferry travel out of the wider pot of fare take. Making ferries under the same integrated fares as buses effectively means pricing them the same as buses, which in the end means subsidising cheaper ferry travel and having less money to spend on non-ferry operations.

One thing they will have to to look at though is intergration of buses feeding ferry. Even if ferry's have their own fixed price they'll need some sort of transfer discount or even make connecting buses free if you use the ferry pass.

If you provide free/discounted bus connections to ferries, then you need to recover some of that bus operating cost out of the ferry fare, therefore instead of the buses subsidising the ferries, you've now got the ferries subsidising the buses!

[Nick R]

Nick, in Japan, the system of JR East SUICA card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suica) and that of the PASMO card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PASMO) used by the myriad of private railway and bus companies in the Kanto region, are fully interoperable and given that the fare tables of JR East and each private line / bus companies are quite different and no cross subsidy takes place anywhere, I dont see why ferries in AKL, cannot be part of the HOP system. Financial reconciliation has always been successful between The JR Group and all private rail line and bus routes they interconnect with, even before PASMO and SUICA were introduced. Seems to me that AKL would do well to mirror what happens in Japan by putting in place a set of robust financial reconciliation procedures between the ferry operators and AT.

Rob, we're talking about two different things here I fear.
Ferries will be part of the hop integrated ticketing system, you will be able to buy ferry passes and/or spend stored value with your Hop on the ferry. What they won't initially be part of is the integrated fares structure, i.e. the zone based passes with unlimited travel/transfers. Ferries will continue to have fixed point to point fares and their own periodicals for each line, while the buses and trains will have a separate set of integrated fares.

There isn't any issue of technology or financial reconciliation, it's simply AT wanting to keep ferries under separate premium pricing so they don't have to subsidise these commercial services.

A simple case in point, the Birkenhead ferry costs $5.30. The bus from Birkenhead to the CBD costs $3.40. Bringing the ferry under the same integrated fare system as the bus would effectively mean directly subsidising each ferry passenger by $2, when currently the commercial ferry service runs without a subsidy. Either that or you would have to set the price of the fully integrated fare somewhere in between, say $4. In that case you have bus passengers cross subsidizing ferry passengers, and getting upset about the cost of PT.

Now before I get flamed by a certain Waiheke based ferry advocate: I'm not saying it's necessarily fair or equitable to not subsidise ferry passengers, just pointing out why AT have chosen to keep them priced separately.

If you provide free/discounted bus connections to ferries, then you need to recover some of that bus operating cost out of the ferry fare, therefore instead of the buses subsidising the ferries, you've now got the ferries subsidising the buses!

Yes, except it would be the specific case of ferries subsidising ferry feeder buses, or rather pricing them as a single network. Ferry feeders are so localized and unique I think you can do that, they only exist to get people to the ferry.
If you don't do that, then you are left with the situation where it is 'free' to drive to the ferry terminal and leave your car on the waterfront all day but you are charged extra for the privilege of catching a connecting bus. If you think of it that way you're actually charging park-n-riders the cost of ferry + bus even though they don't use the bus, thus cross-subsidising those that don't take up all that space with their vehicle, which is functionally equivalent to charging for parking.

[doloras]

Asked what those consequences would be, he told the Herald: "They're off the run."

Yeah... can anyone imagine a National Government doing anything to even mildly inconvenience a profitable business? Especially Gerry Brownlee, self-proclaimed God-Emperor of Christchurch and scourge of Finland? The worst I could imagine them do is kicking them out of the PTOM model but letting them run for-profit services over and above that, just to screw with the "Labour Party mayor".

[odaikorob]

NIck, thanks for the clarification. No, ferries should not come under the integrated fare struture as it does not make any commercialy sense. The current structure under HOP for ferries, bus and rail is fine thus.

[Matt L]

I suspect a few things are linked together, the ferries are also excluded from PTOM contracts as the operators have managed to argue they are also a tourist operation so shouldn't come under AT control like the buses effectively will. With them under a different contract model then AT is probably less likely to want to provide higher subsidies. The ferries also cost a lot more to run so higher fares help with that too.

[Matt L]

Asked what those consequences would be, he told the Herald: "They're off the run."

Yeah... can anyone imagine a National Government doing anything to even mildly inconvenience a profitable business? Especially Gerry Brownlee, self-proclaimed God-Emperor of Christchurch and scourge of Finland? The worst I could imagine them do is kicking them out of the PTOM model but letting them run for-profit services over and above that, just to screw with the "Labour Party mayor".

One thing I have heard is that AT have to be careful how they deal with it so as not to do unfairly damage Infratils share price which could leave them open to possibly having to pay damages

[pickle]

Firstly, Fullers have constantly been lobbying against the PTMA. They should be ignored as they know they are using Auckland as a cash cow, the idea about "tourist services" is a bit stupid, sure exclude Rangitoto and Tiritiri Matangi services but all other routes are very much public transport services. Tourists use the Inner LINK bus route so we better exclude that from the PTOM.

What is the evidence that ferries do actually cost more to operate? I would have thought you have a traffic free corridor at almost no cost. I think Fullers are just gobbling up massive profits, especially from Devonport and Waiheke which are both near monopolies.

[Matt L]

Firstly, Fullers have constantly been lobbying against the PTMA. They should be ignored as they know they are using Auckland as a cash cow, the idea about "tourist services" is a bit stupid, sure exclude Rangitoto and Tiritiri Matangi services but all other routes are very much public transport services. Tourists use the Inner LINK bus route so we better exclude that from the PTOM.

What is the evidence that ferries do actually cost more to operate? I would have thought you have a traffic free corridor at almost no cost. I think Fullers are just gobbling up massive profits, especially from Devonport and Waiheke which are both near monopolies.

You could argue that Devonport and Waiheke are both tourist destinations and that is obviously what they have done, either way the government has brought the spin so there is not much AT can do. I will need to get the PTOM doc I have from the NZTA scanned and do a post on it (its been on my to do list)

[vworp]

Orakei has a new Hop Ticket Machine, and it is about the size of an ATM...

Remuera also has one now. Clearly the pace is picking up...

[pickle]

You could argue that Devonport and Waiheke are both tourist destinations and that is obviously what they have done, either way the government has brought the spin so there is not much AT can do. I will need to get the PTOM doc I have from the NZTA scanned and do a post on it (its been on my to do list)

You could, but so could Ponsonby, Newmarket,Parnell,etc.

[Andrew]

Firstly, Fullers have constantly been lobbying against the PTMA. They should be ignored as they know they are using Auckland as a cash cow, the idea about "tourist services" is a bit stupid, sure exclude Rangitoto and Tiritiri Matangi services but all other routes are very much public transport services. Tourists use the Inner LINK bus route so we better exclude that from the PTOM.

What is the evidence that ferries do actually cost more to operate? I would have thought you have a traffic free corridor at almost no cost. I think Fullers are just gobbling up massive profits, especially from Devonport and Waiheke which are both near monopolies.

Ah, I see a correlation between the above and this. Ferries are getting their way in not being subject to the PTOM at the price of being excluded from revenue protection.

[Matt L]

For those who are detail oriented, there are some interesting details about how the Hop Card will work from an accounting point of view (yes, even the Inland Revenue are interested in this thing)

http://www.ird.govt.nz/resources/7/5/751f06804b863d20910c951c69874dd9/pd12002.pdf

Whilst it is primarily about the GST implications of the Hop Card, nevertheless, it goes into quite some detail.

Para 35 seems to rule out the use of HOP for things like on-street parking meters.

Still disappointing to see that ferry use will be completely excluded from integrated fares (transfer discounts, monthly passes).

If it is an AIFS product and uses Stored Value then it sounds like it would be fine.

[geoff_184]

Is there any word yet on when/if concession tickets (things like day passes) will be enabled on HOP? Or will we always need to buy paper tickets for these?

I still haven't purchased a HOP card, because AFAIK my weekly bus trip will cost $22.60 on the HOP card, compared with the $10.50 I pay for a paper ticket.

[Nick R]

My understanding was that a big driver for the NZTA national standard on ticketing was to allow things like paying parking meters, parking buildings, tolls and taxis.

[greenwelly]

Is there any word yet on when/if concession tickets (things like day passes) will be enabled on HOP? Or will we always need to buy paper tickets for these?

According to the document the system can technically do day passes ( could be done either by a one day period pass, or by simple fare capping on stored credit) I guess it is a question of whether they implement them.....

[Andrew]

Here's the Radio NZ story that Kaiwhara referred to earlier:

Bus ticketing hitch in Auckland

Updated at 4:42 pm on 21 June 2012

The Transport Minister has revived the possibility of Auckland's biggest bus operator being off the road if a new ticketing system is further delayed. A new electronic ticketing system developed for the Government and Auckland's transport agencies is due to begin operating at the end of November. But the Snapper system which is used by NZ Bus has yet to be made compatible with it. Computability was arequirement of a contract with the agencies.
Continues here.

And here is the complete and full media response from NZ Bus:

Integrated Ticketing Auckland

Thursday, 21 June 2012, 5:13 pm Press Release: NZ Bus

Integrated Ticketing Auckland

“NZ Bus are committed to and continue to work with Auckland Transport to deliver integrated ticketing in Auckland” said Zane Fulljames Chief Executive Officer NZ Bus.

ENDS

[pickle]

Pathetic response from NZ Bus there.