Auckland Electric Trains (EMU) Progress

[Chris Randal.]

This is obviously good news ($500 million is much better than no million) and the government has certainly done a lot more than I expected at one point.

However, I do think there are some big negatives in here. In particular, I think the fact that only $500 million has been supplied does mean that Kiwirail will have to cut some part of the project. And I think the fact that the government has left announcing the details up to Kiwirail shows that they know that and rather than taking that negative part of the announcement themselves they are cleverly passing over the problem to Kiwirail...

Wasn't $500m the amount that ARTA wanted to spend on the trains in the first place? The announcement is purely for the procurement of rolling stock.

The wiring and signalling is extra and is funded separately.

[Nick R]

Yes, but better late than never. I keep debating whether to quit reading this forum because of most participants' seeming desire to focus endlessly on the (very real) negative and wallow in despair and negativity. Let's celebrate the few bright spots or we'll all become bitter and twisted.

Sorry for being negative, I get a bit sucked into the "Auckland, land of wasted opportunities" line. I mean we are getting what was proposed initially, just five years later with a few fewer units because the budget is still the same.

But hey, this is a big step and worth celebrating!

[commuter]

I keep debating whether to quit reading this forum because of most participants' seeming desire to focus endlessly on the (very real) negative and wallow in despair and negativity. Let's celebrate the few bright spots or we'll all become bitter and twisted.

Quite understandable. Although those of us who have been sitting on this forum and its Maxx predecessor for some time have demonstrably good reason for cynicism. But Joyce's announcement and Mike Lee's rapturous response (although he seems to have forgotten the 1928 electrification proposal) are indeed things to celebrate. But, as usual with Auckland public transport issues, it seems to be a case of one step forward and two back: the proposed structure for the new Auckland Transport Agency is so road focussed you really have to wonder what planet the people staffing the transition agency live on. Moreover, it seems that obscurity remains the game: one of the reasons for what you describe as a focus on the negative is the lack of transparency involved in the governance of Auckland transport, the absence of verifiable information and an unduly complicated system of responding to valid public interest. What the forum has done is to provide us with a way of overcoming some of those impediments. And on the way it's revealed an extraordinary range of talents and expertise: Geoff 184, Chris R, Nick R and others too numerous to mention and, of course, Jarbury and Cam. And since I'm in a benignish frame of mind at the moment, I'll even include those 2 proto-trolls, John-stone and Riggles, among the great and good. One way or another though, today's announcement by Joyce represents a significant victory for the CBT, so heartfelt congratulations! Now for integrated ticketing and the CBD tunnel, etc. End of boring pontification.

[Chris Randal.]

Quite understandable. Although those of us who have been sitting on this forum and its Maxx predecessor for some time have demonstrably good reason for cynicism. But Joyce's announcement and Mike Lee's rapturous response (although he seems to have forgotten the 1928 electrification proposal) are indeed things to celebrate. But, as usual with Auckland public transport issues, it seems to be a case of one step forward and two back: the proposed structure for the new Auckland Transport Agency is so road focussed you really have to wonder what planet the people staffing the transition agency live on. Moreover, it seems that obscurity remains the game: one of the reasons for what you describe as a focus on the negative is the lack of transparency involved in the governance of Auckland transport, the absence of verifiable information and an unduly complicated system of responding to valid public interest. What the forum has done is to provide us with a way of overcoming some of those impediments. And on the way it's revealed an extraordinary range of talents and expertise: Geoff 184, Chris R, Nick R and others to numerous to mention and, of course, Jarbury and Cam. And since I'm in a benignish frame of mind at the moment, I'll even include those 2 proto-trolls, John-stone and Riggles, among the great and good. One way or another though, today's announcement by Joyce represents a significant victory for the CBT, so heartfelt congratulations! Now for integrated ticketing and the CBD tunnel, etc. End of boring pontification.

I still miss Eric!

[Riggles]

If they had started the process in earnest back in 2003 then the bridges and wires would have been started earlier also. The first report after the ARC voted to pursue the option had the first EMUs running by 2009.... which was delayed out to 2011, and now has become late 2013.

But then if you look at things like Sturges Road which is now into its 3rd round of design due to people not having enough money in their books to make the thing it seems unlikely. Even in the event they decided it was all go in 2003 there is the matter of providing for existing funding provisions and acquiring the funds for the new capital investment, certainly a few good rate increases would have helped things along.

Certainly what this is though is a very clear signal the the CBD loop is on its way. With the councils going through protecting the route and the government forking out money to get us electrified and rolling I have a feeling of optimism that whoever the transport minister is at the time will be turning the first bit of earth by 2020.

BTW, what in the world is a proto-troll? From reading on google it seems to be some sort of electrical daemon that you would find in games such as World of Warcraft?

[john-ston]

I still miss Eric!

So do I

[jarbury]

I am wondering why I don't feel more excited about this. I think when I see a contract being signed for 100+ carriages I will feel better.

This just kinda feels like a re-announcement. A "we haven't cancelled electrification, you should be thankful" kind of announcement even.

[LucyJH]

yes, but if you look at the leaked report it shows that at that time officials thought that just buying 75 24 metre long EMUs and doing all the totally necessary infrastructure upgrades would cost almost $500 million.

If they wanted to get a full complement of electric multiple units that would be sufficient till 2023 and do the infrastructure upgrades I think they would need more than $500 million. I dunno, maybe they've found a way to cut the costs as their initial proposal seemed a bit padded but still don't think they will have money for everybody.

[jarbury]

Indeed Lucy. May I suggest slamming Joyce with a great number of QWAs on that matter?

[LucyJH]

I mean, not everybody. Everything

[Nick R]

But then if you look at things like Sturges Road which is now into its 3rd round of design due to people not having enough money in their books to make the thing it seems unlikely. Even in the event they decided it was all go in 2003 there is the matter of providing for existing funding provisions and acquiring the funds for the new capital investment, certainly a few good rate increases would have helped things along.

Certainly what this is though is a very clear signal the the CBD loop is on its way. With the councils going through protecting the route and the government forking out money to get us electrified and rolling I have a feeling of optimism that whoever the transport minister is at the time will be turning the first bit of earth by 2020.

Yes, but if the will was there then priorities would have been made. Maybe the petrox tax would have happened sooner (and stayed happend under labor), or the sitting ARC would have sacrificed their chances of relection with a large rates rise. Maybe the last government who were happy to throw a billion at a new stadium might have been happy to throw it somewhere else if the region had stronger leadership on the matter.
It's just frustrating that five years ago the ARC came out with their plan that made sense, was fundable and a good strategic direction... and five years later we finally have the decision at all levels amounting to exactly the same thing.

I'm quietly confident on the CBD tunnel, I think it's more a question of 'when' not 'if'. But then again, how many times in the past has Auckland been closer than this to building the thing? One thing to remember is that the electrification project stands up on its own. One fear is that the central government will go 'right, there is your modern train network, nicely done' once the EMUs are running and forget about any ideas of expanding the network. Then it would be left to the region to try and sort it out alone.

By the way, a troll is someone who basically inflames the discussion for the purposes of firing people up and causing trouble, or someone that argues just to win rather than trying to push a particular point. I don't think there are any real trolls on the board, every seems to actually believe what they write, passionate or not.

[doloras]

It's just frustrating that five years ago the ARC came out with their plan that made sense, was fundable and a good strategic direction... and five years later we finally have the decision at all levels amounting to exactly the same thing.

Yeah, but what's happened between then and now is that it's gained a broad political consensus. There is no point making brilliant plans and schemes if the next government is going to simply reverse it, like Muldoon did to NZ Superannuation in 1976. The upside to the delay is that even John Banks agrees with us now.

By the way, a troll is someone who basically inflames the discussion for the purposes of firing people up and causing trouble, or someone that argues just to win rather than trying to push a particular point. I don't think there are any real trolls on the board, every seems to actually believe what they write, passionate or not.

I agree. JJ and Riggles are not trolls. I consider some of their opinions (esp. on matters not directly related to PT) barmy and their method of argumentation unnecessarily abrasive and offensive, but I don't doubt their sincerity.

[doloras]

I dunno, maybe they've found a way to cut the costs as their initial proposal seemed a bit padded but still don't think they will have money for everybody.

Infrastructure must take precedence over rolling stock, if extra $$$ simply cannot be found.

[Chris Randal.]

yes, but if you look at the leaked report it shows that at that time officials thought that just buying 75 24 metre long EMUs and doing all the totally necessary infrastructure upgrades would cost almost $500 million.

If they wanted to get a full complement of electric multiple units that would be sufficient till 2023 and do the infrastructure upgrades I think they would need more than $500 million. I dunno, maybe they've found a way to cut the costs as their initial proposal seemed a bit padded but still don't think they will have money for everybody.

The infrastructure budget is separate.

[LucyJH]

The two projects and budgets were separate initially. But in that report they conflate the two. Basicalyl, what they seem to be saying is "We have run out of money from the infrastructure budget to complete the infrastructure improvements. Therefore, we have two options, either we take money out of the electric rail car budget to pay for infrastructure improvements and buy less trains. Or we do less infrastructure improvements and buy more trains."

Anyway, perhaps I am just completely wrong. This Q and A is interesting http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/rail/Pages/AucklandRailUpgrade.aspx

"How many electric units will there be?

Up to 114 24-metre long Electric Multiple Units will be bought. ARTA will also potentially need to lease up to 13 electric locomotives either from KiwiRail or another supplier.

ARTA’s original proposal was for 140 20-metre long electric units with a similar number of electric locomotives. However, further investigation has shown longer higher-capacity trains will be able to operate on the upgraded network, which will be more cost effective and efficient - reducing the total number required. ARTA’s budget of $500m for the new trains and maintenance depot is unchanged. The final numbers and length of trains will be determined by the tender process."

So perhaps they found they could get the trains cheaper than they originally thought? Or perhaps when they say "up to" they don't necessarily mean they will actualyl be able to get them all...

[Rocky]

So the EF's are still in for consideration, I guess that decision will be made by Kiwirail now, talk about passing the buck. And what is this another supplier option? some magical electirc units just lying around is there?

[john-ston]

Anyway, perhaps I am just completely wrong. This Q and A is interesting

It is indeed very interesting, particularly the bit that I have bolded

Up to 114 24-metre long Electric Multiple Units will be bought. ARTA will also potentially need to lease up to 13 electric locomotives either from KiwiRail or another supplier.

That means that we could end up with up to 38 three-car EMUs, so effectively, we have three more EMUs than under the old proposal. Considering that we also end up with one more electric locomotive than under the old proposal, this effectively means that the current scheme offers far more capacity than the Labour one (and would be especially so if there are seven car SA sets instead of six car SA sets). All we now need is for the units to come from EDI Bombardier, then I will be a very happy man.

And what is this another supplier option? some magical electirc units just lying around is there?

I think that refers to the electric locomotives, so essentially we could either have EFs running in Auckland (which would be a challenge), or we end up with new electric locomotives specifically purchased for the hauling of Auckland suburbans. My concern with going with the new electric locomotive option is that the SAs have a design life until 2030, so we could have seventeen year old electric locomotives with nothing to do come 2030 (that is unless we end up electrifying the rest of the North Island Main Trunk by that stage, which is a possibility).

[GetAcross]

seeming desire to focus endlessly on the (very real) negative and wallow in despair and negativity. Let's celebrate the few bright spots or we'll all become bitter and twisted.

Too late

You are right of course, doloras. It's even more important for me in my work as a cycle advocate. You can get so down sometimes!

A "we haven't cancelled electrification, you should be thankful" kind of announcement even.

Well, we won't REALLY breathe easy until the first one pulls into the station. But this train is heading downhill now, and unlikely to stop before that happens.

One fear is that the central government will go 'right, there is your modern train network, nicely done' once the EMUs are running and forget about any ideas of expanding the network.

Of course that is what they will try to do - this is not something they believe in. But a) governments can change, b) success breeds its own pressure.

[Jeremy Harris]

Oh to be a fly on the wall of that cabinet discussion... Any one know where we can get the minutes..?

[Riggles]

By the way, a troll is someone who basically inflames the discussion for the purposes of firing people up and causing trouble, or someone that argues just to win rather than trying to push a particular point. I don't think there are any real trolls on the board, every seems to actually believe what they write, passionate or not.

Yes I had a good idea what a troll was however it was the proto-troll that I was confused about.