Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

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Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby nz_aj » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:50 pm

On-board tram plan, Auckland City Harbour News 14July2010
POSITIVE PLAN: Western bays advocate Geoff Houtman has a vision to extend Motat’s 1.9km tramway into a longer link which would run down Ponsonby Rd, connect with theWynyard Quarter tram loop and also go to Queens Wharf.
GEOFF Houtman is not short of ambition to improve Auckland's transport.
Confirmation of heritage tram plans for Wynyard Quarter has inspired the western bays advocate to propose an extension to the circuit.
The Auckland Regional Council is backing a tourist-focused tram loop to be built in time for the Rugby World Cup.
This will see trams from either Motat or on loan from Melbourne make a circuit around Gateway Plaza, Jellicoe, Halsey, Gaunt and Beaumont streets.
Construction and management is being carried out by Motat and ARC subsidiary Sea+City.
But Mr Houtman says a Wynyard to Wynyard loop won't do.
"Wynyard Wharf will have hundreds of millions of dollars poured into it and if it's only connected to itself it's a waste of money. The rectangle proposal imagines that people will walk to the tram and go round the block on it to look at silos," he says.
"Common sense dictates folks will save time by not walking there in the first place."
Mr Houtman is proposing an extended tram line could run up Quay, Sturdee, Fanshawe and Gaunt streets – where it would connect with the Wynyard circuit, run up College Hill, along Ponsonby Rd, Williamson Ave and Great North Rd to connect with the Motat line.
"No one in this town has a vision. I've got nothing to lose. If there was a tram going up College Hill in 1902, then in 2010 it shouldn't be that hard. With the upcoming amalgamation, everyone wants to leave legacy projects. This would be one."
He estimates his plan would cost about $26 million and take in about 15 tourist attractions.
But Sea+City project director John Dalzell feels Mr Houtman's plans are premature.
"There is limited time to get this done and we are focused on that. Our system will be able to link into other things. The first priorities are short-term targets rather than getting ahead of ourselves."
Regional council chairman Mike Lee says many people have had big ideas about extending the tramway.
"They have inevitably failed because they are too ambitious. To be honest, I'm not taking him very seriously."
Mr Lee says if Mr Houtman can find suitable funding and gain support from the multitude of transport and local agencies, that's fine.
"In the meantime we will stick to the modest tramway proposal. Talk is cheap. We have to start small and take it from there."
City council transport committee chairman Ken Baguley says a central city rail loop would better suit Auckland's future.
"The CBD rail loop will underpin the system and is needed. It would double the capacity of trains using Britomart."
He says if this is installed under Albert, Pitt and Symonds streets, continuing on to Mt Eden, then "what's the sense of having old trams trundling along?"
"There needs to be planned transport around the CBD loop and this will link to Wynyard Quarter."
Motat tramway manager Colin Zeff declined to comment on Mr Houtman's idea
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Nick R » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:17 pm

A fairly sound proposal much like we were discussing on the board not long ago. The comment about starting small and linking into other things is quite promising from the future.

Shame on Ken Baguely though, the CBD tunnel and a waterfront/Parnell tram would be two very different things servicing two different parts of the city, why consider it and either-or scenario? Did Geoff Houtman suggest a tram line from the waterfront to Western Springs would somehow be a replacement for a city rail tunnel?!

Hmmm...He says if this is installed under Albert, Pitt and Symonds streets, continuing on to Mt Eden, then "what's the sense of having old trams trundling along?".

Well the answer to that is the trams wouldn't be anywhere near Albert, Pitt and Symonds St!!
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Rolls-Royce » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:10 am

This guy is on the right track with advocating the tram line be extended so that it actually takes people somewhere. Trams running through Ponsonby to Motat would be popular and would compliment Ponsonby Road.

The first extension from the current proposal though should be a line along Quay Street from the Viaduct to Britomart as this would actually have the trams providing a useful practical service with bringing people to and from the Viaduct from the trains/buses/ferries in the Britomart area at the bottom of Queen Street.

I am concerned that the current proposal of just a loop line 'running around the block' in the Wynyard Quarter with battery operated trams could end up being a flop and be seen as an excuse to not expand the tram network. This could change if the Government decides move Party Central to the Marine international events centre currently being built in this area. A tram line between Britomart and the Viaduct really is a must if the idea is to succeed.

This idea of converting the trams to run on batteries needs to be dropped, they will be too slow and an expanded tram network needs to be reasonably fast. The reason given that boat masts might touch the overhead wires doesn't really stack up as there is power lines running down Hamer Street nearby (and they have been there for many many years).

Absolute nonsense from Auckland City Council with implying that it would be competing with the CBD rail tunnel - it is a completely different route, in a different area of the city.

I think Mike Lee is playing it down as he probably just wants to get the trams back into the city with a small achievable project, then look to expand - Britomart, Queen Street, Dominion Road etc.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Jen » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:49 am

Due to the increase in rolling stock that would be required, extra garaging is required, and there's not enough space at MOTAT. Would require garaging space for four cars somewhere on the Viaduct or thereabouts, and this needs to be established upfront before anything else happens. Personally I think to attempt to extend out of MOTAT is not practical. I support establishing a separate line down at the Viaduct, and like you, can't see a lot of point in having a tram or two running around in a little circle effectively going nowhere. Tank farm to Britomart needs to be the objective so passengers have realistic destinations. There's little pt down there anyway so such a route would fill a need.

Forget batteries - if heritage trams are going to be used, and they're available immediately from Melbourne, battery operation is out of the question. These trams would require a whole lot of work to convert them to battery and are too heavy for battery to have adequate reliability. I have talked with MOTAT engineers about this and the message is 'forget it'.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Nick R » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:34 pm

If they put a bit of extra cash into the viaduct bridge to go back to the original plan for a line (not loop) from Britomart across Jellicoe St and down Daldy, then the issue with the wires/masts disappears as Beaumont st would be clear.

It would be nice if they could sign off on the events centre as 'party central', and do a decent bridge and the tramway at the same time.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Matt L » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:52 pm

They are putting up a temporary pedestrian bridge for the RWC, whats the bet it will become permanent and not strong enough to put trams on. Also interestingly at the CBT meeting the other day John Banks slammed the tram idea (no surprise there) but during question time he indicated that diesel buses would banned from using the bridge but indicated that cars would be allowed to.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby nz_aj » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:04 pm

Matt L wrote:They are putting up a temporary pedestrian bridge for the RWC, whats the bet it will become permanent and not strong enough to put trams on.

The temporary bridge is to be strong enough for ambulances but not strong enough for fire engines.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby drosophila » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:39 pm

Matt L wrote:They are putting up a temporary pedestrian bridge for the RWC, whats the bet it will become permanent and not strong enough to put trams on. Also interestingly at the CBT meeting the other day John Banks slammed the tram idea (no surprise there) but during question time he indicated that diesel buses would banned from using the bridge but indicated that cars would be allowed to.


Seriously? The whole point of the bridge was that it would be restricted to PT and foot/bike traffic. Yet another reason why I hope we see the back of him ASAP.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Matt L » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:24 am

drosophila wrote:
Matt L wrote:They are putting up a temporary pedestrian bridge for the RWC, whats the bet it will become permanent and not strong enough to put trams on. Also interestingly at the CBT meeting the other day John Banks slammed the tram idea (no surprise there) but during question time he indicated that diesel buses would banned from using the bridge but indicated that cars would be allowed to.


Seriously? The whole point of the bridge was that it would be restricted to PT and foot/bike traffic. Yet another reason why I hope we see the back of him ASAP.

Well he said something along the lines of, it should primarily be for pedestrians and that they shouldn't have to put up with smelly and smoky diesel buses going past them, he didn't want to see it become a rat run but there would need to be some level of vehicle access for people to get between the two.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Nick R » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:21 pm

Ah, whats wrong with Fanshawe St or Viaduct Harbour Avenue?! Pretty sure those count as private vehicle access.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby drosophila » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:45 pm

Nick R wrote:Ah, whats wrong with Fanshawe St or Viaduct Harbour Avenue?! Pretty sure those count as private vehicle access.

Agreed, if we are ever to see Quay street more or less pedestrianised it will be essential to reduce the number of roads that feed onto it - restricting a future permanent structure to trams will be an important way of achieving this. Fanshawe street more than suffices as an access point for Wynward Quarter.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Daniel » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:25 pm

Here's an idea; as well as going the whole hog and terminating at Britomart, how about the tramway going all the way past the Zoologlical gardens, big old aircraft hanger, secondary school and on to Point Chevelier? making it a justifiable commuter link that is also convenient to Tourist points of interest?

And then they can look at developing the stadium at Western springs perhaps?
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby jarbury » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:28 pm

If the stadium at Western Springs was enlarged a bit it would make a great Test Cricket ground.

I still think that this line, for trams/light-rail, would be behind Dominion Road and Tamaki Drive in my list of priorities.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby luke.xensen » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:04 am

The issue with Tamaki Drive trams is that they would mostly be leisure and tourist trams, which would be very nice but I dont think that should be driving our PT development priorities. There is very little opportunity for redevelopment along the Tamaki Drive corridor, and also as there is only housing on one side overall density is rather low.
I think a Ponsonby and Great North Road line would tick much more of these boxes, and drive redevelopment of Great North Road which is desperately in need of it. Arch Hill especially struck me as one big flash car yard, and much of the rest is transitional light industrial/offices with few historic buildings.
Perfect place to transform into a mixed use medium density TOD.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby drosophila » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:16 am

Gt North road has the potential for a lot of transit oriented development, rather than the current car yard oriented development. A tram along here to Pt Chev would be extremely popular.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby eljefe » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:26 am

Here's the original essay I wrote that formed the basis for some of the article, I've also attached the proposed route and the original Auckland Tram System map (which has been on here before from memory?). Immediately after I sent it out the temporary Te wero bridge was announced, so the route can go further north up Wynyard and then across to the viaduct area. With the track record of that bridge Fanshawe St. is probably more realistic...

The site is up too...
http://www.ourhood.co.nz/#2

Having said that how the hell do you attach images?

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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby eljefe » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:17 am

Having said that- here's the essay :oops:

Under current Council plans, the Inner West suburbs, and the tourist destinations within, won’t get light rail until after 2040. That’s eleven Rugby World Cups away.

The ARC has decided to run trams around a small rectangle on Wynyard Wharf, Transport boss Ken Baguley thinks there’s no point unless it connects to something. Both of them are right.

Wynyard Wharf will have hundreds of millions of dollars poured into it and if it’s only connected to itself- it’s a waste of money. The Rectangle proposal imagines that people will walk to the tram, go round the block on it to look at silos and then walk away somewhere else. Common sense dictates folks will save time by not walking there in the first place.

Wynyard Wharf needs to be connected to the Viaduct and Queens wharf as a matter of course, but it still needs to go somewhere people actively want to go, like tourist attractions and parks. And shops.

Luckily we have a string of such destinations close to Wynyard, some of them already connected by tram. Victoria Park, Three Lamps, Ponsonby Road, Western Park, Grey Lynn Park, Grey Lynn shops, Springs Stadium and MOTAT where the existing tram line whisks us to Western Springs Park, the Zoo and MOTAT 2.

We don’t even have to create a new line, it’s merely an extension of a current one.

The proposed “Wynyard to Wynyard” line has technical hurdles to overcome; yacht mast clearance, arcing risk near bulk fuels, but primarily the fact that it goes NOWHERE.

The #1 Western Line solves these problems by passing south of the mast clearance and bulk fuels areas, and most importantly, visits every tourist attraction and park in the Inner West.

180,000 people a year use the trams already, how many more would use the expanded version? The W1 line extension runs 6.2 kilometres and would cost roughly $26 million.

ARC’s own Auckland Waterfront Tramway Feasibility Study says it’s pointless without access to attractions.

Let’s not waste $7 million on trams going nowhere, let’s invest $26 million in a plan with massive cultural, environmental and economic benefits. It’s the one chance for non-polluting rail in this central part of Auckland, and the best thing is; that if we start now, it’ll be ready in time for the Rugby World Cup.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby Rolls-Royce » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:33 am

This tram proposal is right on the nail eljefe!

There are other benefits such as the route of the tram running through heritage suburbs such as Ponsonby and Grey Lynn and trams would be complementary to the historic houses and shops in these areas.

Trams would also complement the street environment along Ponsonby Road and would be popular with cafe patrons and residents in this area. You could come off a train or a ferry in downtown Auckland and catch a tram up to Ponsonby for a coffee.

You need to get this in the eyes and ears of the super city candidates. You have really to got to keep the idea out there in the public arena. Politicians respond to public issues. Suggest you:
- organise an appointment with Len Brown to present your proposal to him.
- contact the NZ Herald and the local newspapers such as the Central Leader to do interviews with you.
- Contact the Ponsonby and Grey Lynn Business Associations and present your proposals to them. Organisations such as this can really help progress proposals such as this.
- Present it to the Hobson and Western Bays Community Boards.
- Present it to the Campaign for Better Transport. Contact Cam Pitches.
Last edited by Rolls-Royce on Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby john-ston » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:34 am

Although that $26 million has to come from somewhere, and that $26 million would allow for a complete revitalisation of the bus network - we currently have far too many areas that are serviced by only one bus per hour in the off-peak.
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Re: Tram connection from Wynyard to Motat

Postby royce » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:32 pm

Correct me if I am wrong but I think this tram is just going to go around in a circle or maybe a loop but anyway just thinking about the batteries. If they were put onto a seperate trailer along with a well muffled 20 KW generator they may well be able to enough energy to power the trams all day long. The generator could just run all the time charging the batteries when the tram needs maximium power it would be provided by the stored charge in the batteries. The trailer could be dressed up to look like a proper tram trailer and for a bit of green bullshit they could place some solar cells on its roof and the generator could run on bio fuel. Another possibility would be to have some of the route to have overhead where the batteries could be charged. The trams could be used un modified with just a cable connecting them to the power trailer. I reckon it would work its not as though there are any hills and they would be unlikely to ever attain a speed greater than 40 km/hour.
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