Rebuild The Strand station

General discussion forum for Auckland transport issues.
Forum rules
Please be courteous and factual. Remember that it is entirely normal for others to disagree with you. Forum moderators reserve the right to restrict access in the event of offensive behaviour (including trolling).
No commercial postings. This will result in user deletion.
Please stay on topic and remind other contributors to stay on topic.
No gratuitous profanity. "Gratuitous" is decided on a case by case basis.
Please report posts that you consider offensive instead of posting about it in the topic. Any comments regarding moderation should be confined to About This Forum.

Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:08 pm

Continued from the SNAFU thread:

flange wrote:
Matt L wrote:
geoff_184 wrote:The curves could be eased with an elevated line over the Strand. No tunnel necessary.

That is what I thought, I wonder how much it would cost and how much benefit it would provide. The benefits I can see would be mainly time (perhaps saving up to 30 seconds per trip) and less maintenance required to the existing bridges.

I do hope they do something about those curves and hopefully at the same time they could grade separate the junction.


Rebuild the line with the curve starting further back towards the tunnel with new bridges over the Strand and Ronayne St.

Probably no need to take private land - it could all be done inside the corridor.


Matt L wrote:
Nick R wrote:
flange wrote:Rebuild the line with the curve starting further back towards the tunnel with new bridges over the Strand and Ronayne St.

Probably no need to take private land - it could all be done inside the corridor.


How about a running it elevated from the vicinity of the Carlaw Park Ave overbridge, above Shipwright lane (which could be closed to traffic) then straight ahead over The Strand to come in perpendicular to the Strand platforms. They'd have to be a bit careful with the design so it didn't get too ugly though.
This would ease the worst of the curves plus provide a straight, flat section of track behind the old station building for platforms that trains to/from Newmarket can stop at, which together with a matching pair on the eastern would allow the Strand to be the terminal again.

The best thing would be to have this new line and platforms elevated at the Strand to pass over the lines to the 'country' platforms and have a flying junction to the Britomart throat. Any train accessing the terminus could use the old line and pass under the suburban platform.


The alternative would be to drop the suburban line into a trench with new country links coming off it. Grade sep could be done by going down. THis would allow the old corridor could be sold. It would furnish land for three or four new apartment buildings, which might cover the cost of the new viaduct.

Do you mean something like this? Blue lines are the the southern, red is the eastern, green is a link between the two (although that could be elsewhere) and yellow is land that could be sold off for development (there is actually quite a bit there)

Image



Pretty much, except a bit straighter on the blue line (goodbye car mechanics and self storage shed).

Thinking about this more, it would be good to have the 'country' lines to come off the new viaduct at th existing platform height. Meanwhile a pair of metro tracks can split off either side around about where the viaduct starts to pass over The Strand. These can then ramp down to subgrade level into a pair of single trenches heading straight ahead as the country tracks curve off overhead. Across the front of and below the country platforms you could have a metro island platform, then the two metro tracks continue around the curve in two single track trenches to join either side of the eastern line heading into the tunnel (one track passing under the eastern approach first).

Add in an eastern line stop alongside the country platforms and we have a fully functional terminal station with grade separation between country and metro trains plus grade separation leading into Britomart.

Image
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby kaiwhara » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:15 pm

The old station is actually being demolished currently (excepting the current usable platform) to make way for the Stabling Compound...
Beware. I know everything. Mostly. Not quite. Ummmmmm... Can I ask the Audience???
User avatar
kaiwhara
Moderator
 
Posts: 5963
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:25 am
Location: Ask Train Control!

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:44 pm

Oh good, clean slate!
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Daniel » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:57 pm

The location seems ideal for a line station considering the local property developments.

I remember when I first signed up I suggested building a station nearby and one day (in a future where NZ rail network gets redeveloped an heavily patronised) reusing the old station building for the terminus for long distance intercity services.
"I don't like it when posters here seem to be impugning the professionalism or even the good faith of PT planners and staff, and I wish that wasn't allowed on this forum" - Doloras.
Daniel
Certified Trainspotter
 
Posts: 3350
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Matt L » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:52 pm

Even if this was built I don't actually think there should be a station there,, except possibly an event only one. Intercity trains should continue to use Britomart and there must be a way we can squeeze one in and out an hour.
Matt L
Moderator
 
Posts: 5129
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:41 pm
Location: Within walking distance of Sturges Rd station

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:08 pm

I'm thinking about plenty more than one train an hour from beyond the electrified suburban network!

I agree the terminus should be Britomart, however once they seem insisten on plugging the CBD tunnel into the end of it Britomart to make it only useable as a metro stop.
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

6 track britomart

Postby Scott » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:12 pm

Or we could just go all out.

Image

Triple Britomarts capacity, eliminate that pesky curve etc. I had a better alignment but it required removal of an apartment building and closure of a minor road so this one is my favorite atm.

Britomart terminus could still be used for Avondale -Shutdown trains via the eastern line, intercity trains and diesel express trains

Won't come cheap though.

[edit] - will be a combination of trench and (mostly) tunnel. I imagine just continuing the TBM along the red route and using cut and cover/trenching for the eastern link

[edit2] - Perhaps the eastern link is unnecessary if there is a connection in or after britomart
Last edited by Scott on Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Scott
Trainee Transport Geek
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:17 pm

How do trains on your red line stop at The Strand? Thats the current problem with it, we could have a terminus there but none of the suburban trains could service it.
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Scott » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:23 pm

Nick R wrote:How do trains on your red line stop at The Strand? Thats the current problem with it, we could have a terminus there but none of the suburban trains could service it.


If we have an 6 tracks capacity into britomart (CBD loop + red line +current tunnel) I think that would be enough capacity for the next few decades. I think this would remove the need to re-open the strand station.
Scott
Trainee Transport Geek
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:10 pm

Righto I follow you now. You really need to build extra platforms at britomart somehow to use anything close to the capacity of six tracks though!
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Scott » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:18 pm

Nick R wrote:Righto I follow you now. You really need to build extra platforms at britomart somehow to use anything close to the capacity of six tracks though!


Yes, 2 more should do it, You were the one who convinced me of the need. I like the beach road alignment better than the one you proposed next to the port. Yours will be cheeper, but mine will be better.

Im unsure if if the new platforms need to be in the same complex as britomart of just nearby.
Scott
Trainee Transport Geek
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:54 pm

I imagine it would be almost impossible to get either extra tunnel access or platforms into the Britomart 'box', so I think just nearby is a given. I agree with edit 2, it would be easier to simply terminate eastern trains at Britomart, or to build the westward extension to the CBD tunnel as proposed.

I can see two issues here though. Firstly you have sent the line under Beach Rd/Customs St to get rid of the pesky curve at The Strand... but if you intend on connecting this line to the CBD tunnel then you would need an impossibly tight curve into Albert St. That was my reasoning for going north of Britomart under Quay St, it eases both the Quay Park and the Albert St.
Second issue is the grades, again it looks like they might be pesky themselves. The rail track at the end of the abutment by the satellite dish is 11m higher than Beach Rd over by Britomart, then you would need to get a further 5m or so below that to be underground, so it's a 16m drop. At a reasonably 1:40 grade of the CBD tunnel that means a ramp section 640m long, even longer if you want to clear Stanley St first. So all of the red bit would be elevated or at grade, and the tunnel portal would be in the middle of Beach Rd by the scene apartments.
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby geoff_184 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:06 pm

Nick R wrote:Image


Except this plan defeats the purpose of eliminating the two sharp curves presently there, with two more curves that are the same or sharper. Considering the existing curves are 25, your lower curve would probably be around 10km/h, at that's at the base of a grade as well.

To ease the curves you are going to have to use all of the route to get two wider curves in. The less straight sections the better, as any straights just means sharper curves at each end.

Something like this would probably get the speed up around 45:

Image
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NewZealandLocomotives/
User avatar
geoff_184
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7945
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:51 am
Location: Swansonville

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Scott » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:27 pm

Nick R wrote:I imagine it would be almost impossible to get either extra tunnel access or platforms into the Britomart 'box', so I think just nearby is a given. I agree with edit 2, it would be easier to simply terminate eastern trains at Britomart, or to build the westward extension to the CBD tunnel as proposed.


I had two options, neither are easy.

option one was to build the tunnel/platforms under galway street. One britomart platform would be removed and this space and the light rail space might allow it to fit.

Option 2: build the station on an angle between queen and custom streets. This required the station be under buildings which might be a (large) problem.

Re the grade could the Parnell Grade be adjusted or is it near max?

The reason i cut my image off where i did was that i had no idea how to tackle the curve. Its going to have to run under buildings whatever happens i think.
Scott
Trainee Transport Geek
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby geoff_184 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:05 pm

I wouldn't bother with expensive tunneling or bridging to get more tracks into the CBD, when there is plenty of open space on the waterfront just waiting for good development ideas. I would take a surface line alongside Quay St for long distance trains, and develop the area as an "all in one" transport focal point.

A couple of basic concepts off the top of my head:

Green = Suburban rail station (Britomart, underground)
Red = Ferry terminal
Light Blue = Long-distance passenger train terminal (surface)
Dark blue = Cruise Ship terminal
Purple = Alternate option, combined long-distance train and crusie ship terminal

Image
Image

The long distance train terminal would cater for Wellington trains, the Waikato Connection, excursions and special trains meeting cruise ships.

If developed before the CBD tunnel is completed (a surface line option would only be a two year project) then it could probably handle a small number of Eastern/Southern suburban trains as well.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NewZealandLocomotives/
User avatar
geoff_184
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7945
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:51 am
Location: Swansonville

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:23 pm

geoff_184 wrote: Except this plan defeats the purpose of eliminating the two sharp curves presently there, with two more curves that are the same or sharper. Considering the existing curves are 25, your lower curve would probably be around 10km/h, at that's at the base of a grade as well.


Yes this is true, my goal there was to introduce a straight section for a platform at the strand for parnell branch services so it could be a proper interchange (ie not fixing the curve but not making them any worse either)
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Matt L » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:25 pm

Geoff I like idea of a long distance terminal tied into the cruise terminal but I would put it on Captain Cook Wharf instead of Queens.
Matt L
Moderator
 
Posts: 5129
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:41 pm
Location: Within walking distance of Sturges Rd station

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Nick R » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:29 pm

geoff_184 wrote:I wouldn't bother with expensive tunneling or bridging to get more tracks into the CBD, when there is plenty of open space on the waterfront just waiting for good development ideas. I would take a surface line alongside Quay St for long distance trains, and develop the area as an "all in one" transport focal point.

The long distance train terminal would cater for Wellington trains, the Waikato Connection, excursions and special trains meeting cruise ships.

If developed before the CBD tunnel is completed (a surface line option would only be a two year project) then it could probably handle a small number of Eastern/Southern suburban trains as well.


a nice concept but I could see a lot of resistance to surface tracks on the waterfront, I imagine all the long term plans have that as public promenade. Actually I think new surface rail was banned as part of the treaty settlement.
I should still listen to Doloras.
User avatar
Nick R
Uber Transit Geek
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Halfway between K Rd station and Newton station.

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby nz_aj » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:43 pm

Increasing the speed from 25km/hr to 45km/hr over about 500m of track means a change in time from 1.2mins to 0.7min.
Is it worth spending this much money just to save half a minute?
Would the same money pay for extending track from Onehunga to Mangere?

It might be possible to run tracks under Beach Rd, then against the south face of the Scene apartments, then under Galway St & tie up with the southern Britomart light rail platform? I think this would make the tracks at grade around Stanley St, requiring some road bridges. General demolition of lowrise buildings in this area would be no great loss, also allowing straightening of beach road or general realignment. Maybe Stanley St might be directed down the existing rail corridor to connect more directly with Quay St?
Image
User avatar
nz_aj
Bus Foamer
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Rebuild The Strand station

Postby Rail-it » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:28 pm

I like the red line, if possible. Alot of work required, but alot of conflicting movements removed, and speedier arrivals and departures=2-3, even 4 mins off Britomart to Newmarket.
Clear, Normal Speed.
Rail-it
Certified Trainspotter
 
Posts: 4206
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:23 pm

Next

Return to Auckland Transport Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron