PT Real Time Information Signs

[dpalenski]

At least they didn't choose Comic Sans.

A favorite of councils during the 60's, 70's and in some cases the 80's for signage.

Comic Sans was invented in the early 90s.

Really then what the hell I'm thinking of then.

[john-ston]

Some cases I said they were done into the 80's block writing became quite popular the Auckland City Council used it a fair bit you would of seen them mostly some featured the council logo on them, anything earlier would be pretty rare and in places sign hunters like myself would only look hence why they've been missed and are still there and sometimes completely irrelevant now. My favorite is 'The riding of bicycles and horses on the footpath is strictly prohibited. By order of Takapuna City Council' and a Northcote Bough Council one that escapes as to what it said right at this moment.

One of the few old ones that I do recall are still extant is a blacked out one on Symonds Street nailed into a tree outside the Engineering building (incidentally, that used to be the intersection of O'Rorke Road and Symonds Street until O'Rorke Road was shut to make way for the Maths and Sciences Building)

[Andrew]

The same person who told me about the rail system real time feeds also told me that the bus system doesn't actually use GPS, it uses a system called geo-fencing which basically is sensors in traffic lights that detect when buses go past them which feeds the information back to make a guess as to where the bus is at any given time.

Was this a reliable source?

The bus driver display for lateness clearly has a GPS status LED.

Back in the 1990s, there was a sensor-based system along Dominion Road, but that was pulled out many years ago now. I remember it from my school-age days, there were displays at the Balmoral and Valley Rd shops.

I'm thinking mainly of all those bus stop display signs, all of which show Britomart departure data only. For example if a bus departs Britomart 10 minutes late, the real time info at all the bus stops along the route have 10 minutes manually added regardless of where the bus actually is. It's not real time info at all.

Case in point, the 136 bus departed Henderson three Sundays ago while the sign was still saying it was 6 minutes away.

I'm pretty sure that's not right either.

This is my understanding of how it works:

When a bus has correctly logged on to the GPS tracking system AND has departed its starting point, it is GPS-tracked in real-time with predicted arrival times calculated for stops ahead of it.

HOWEVER, if one of those two prerequisites it not met, all the signs (which includes online and mobile displays) instead show an estimated arrival time based off the timetable.

The problem with this current system is there is no way to tell from the waiting passenger's point of view which of these two systems is calculating the arrival time shown. Clues that actual real time data is used is if the shown ETA counts down unevenly or even goes up - this shows something is being recalculated from something that is varying (ie, the actual position of the bus).

I have noticed that the GPS arrival accuracy of the inbound buses my wife and I use has improved as newer buses have been used on Sandringham Rd services.

[Matt L]

The same person who told me about the rail system real time feeds also told me that the bus system doesn't actually use GPS, it uses a system called geo-fencing which basically is sensors in traffic lights that detect when buses go past them which feeds the information back to make a guess as to where the bus is at any given time.

Was this a reliable source?

The bus driver display for lateness clearly has a GPS status LED.

Back in the 1990s, there was a sensor-based system along Dominion Road, but that was pulled out many years ago now. I remember it from my school-age days, there were displays at the Balmoral and Valley Rd shops.

I think they were based on what they told me, there were a few other things they said that I won't post here but it certainly gave me the impression that they knew what they were talking about.

[Andrew]

http://stephengmesa.blogspot.co.nz/2009/08/bus-driver-display-console.html

While the display configuration is different, the hardware layout and LED labels of the consoles deployed in Auckland are the same.

[drosophila]

Someone more involved once posted images of how the buses are tracked and it's not via traffic light signals.

http://transportblog.co.nz/2011/08/29/t ... nds-buses/

[Chris Randal.]

Noticed this morning at Homai and Meadowbank that the new pids are working and showing minutes to the next trains after the scheduled time. My train was 10 late or so and was still on the board at Homai.

[dpalenski]

Noticed this morning at Homai and Meadowbank that the new pids are working and showing minutes to the next trains after the scheduled time. My train was 10 late or so and was still on the board at Homai.

The one's at Papatoetoe work too. But like some bus drivers, some train drivers forget to reset their GPS so it's not always working.

[Rail-it]

Noticed this morning at Homai and Meadowbank that the new pids are working and showing minutes to the next trains after the scheduled time. My train was 10 late or so and was still on the board at Homai.

The one's at Papatoetoe work too. But like some bus drivers, some train drivers forget to reset their GPS so it's not always working.

We aren't responsible for doing that at this stage. It's the TM that is.

[dpalenski]

Noticed this morning at Homai and Meadowbank that the new pids are working and showing minutes to the next trains after the scheduled time. My train was 10 late or so and was still on the board at Homai.

The one's at Papatoetoe work too. But like some bus drivers, some train drivers forget to reset their GPS so it's not always working.

We aren't responsible for doing that at this stage. It's the TM that is.

Oh ok sorry about that then.

[Rail-it]

We aren't responsible for doing that at this stage. It's the TM that is.

Oh ok sorry about that then.

It's not a hard thing to do though is it. As far as I'm aware the GPS resets when the route is punched into the PID keypad.

[dpalenski]

We aren't responsible for doing that at this stage. It's the TM that is.

Oh ok sorry about that then.

It's not a hard thing to do though is it. As far as I'm aware the GPS resets when the route is punched into the PID keypad.

Yep it's pretty simple easier than the bus one. You won't have a hard time with it all.

[AKL_Train_Driver]

As far as I'm aware, the real time PIDs are being progressively made live starting at Papakura and Swanson and working their way towards Britomart, with more stations coming "online" over the next few weeks. Should there be any hiccups then I'm led to believe that the roll-out will be halted while they investigate the cause of problem.

The PIDs on the trains are really easy to setup. Just choose the route on the Pathplayer with the corresponding "F" keys then scroll "up" or "down" for the correct route/destination, then hit "OK". That will not only trigger the on-board PIDs but also the GPS and announcements.

[kaiwhara]

Having worked those Pid's sir, how does that then tell the server which train you are??

As far as I'm aware, the real time PIDs are being progressively made live starting at Papakura and Swanson and working their way towards Britomart, with more stations coming "online" over the next few weeks. Should there be any hiccups then I'm led to believe that the roll-out will be halted while they investigate the cause of problem.

The PIDs on the trains are really easy to setup. Just choose the route on the Pathplayer with the corresponding "F" keys then scroll "up" or "down" for the correct route/destination, then hit "OK". That will not only trigger the on-board PIDs but also the GPS and announcements.

[AKL_Train_Driver]

Having worked those Pid's sir, how does that then tell the server which train you are??

I wasn't aware that it did! It certainly doesn't require the input of a service number (for the moment at least), so I would guess that train numbers are worked out from berthings/departures at TC? I was also under the impression that real time info was taken from the order of running at TC, so the PIDs at stations kind of "assume" that the next service is what is displayed, and in the event of a cancellation or other service disruption, the system could be manually updated. I could be wrong though!

[kaiwhara]

I didnt think it did either, but it certainly does not have anything to do with Westcad or the Westrace Locking!

[AKL_Train_Driver]

Perhaps one of the TCOs on the NZ Locos group would have better knowledge of those things. I know the on-board GPS provides a feed to the on-board PIDs and announcements, as well as providing tranzlog data. Perhaps it also connects via a radio link to a type of server to determin location for real time displays at stations. Perhaps someone on here knows!

[Rail-it]

I know the on-board GPS provides a feed to the on-board PIDs and announcements, as well as providing tranzlog data. Perhaps it also connects via a radio link to a type of server to determin location for real time displays at stations. Perhaps someone on here knows!

That's about what I thought. I was under the impression once the route is set on the trains PID's, that this had some form of confirmation of which service it is. The real time information would have to come from the GPS finding the trains actual location.

You may have noticed in particular in the last 6 months the AUX light flashing on the argo radios in particular. When the AUX light is illuminated(without flashing), it simply says that the trains(well actually, loco, DMU or SD) being tracked by GPS, this has been a regular occurence for sometime now(started 2009?). I'm not to sure exactly what the flashing is for, but I'm thinking it is transmitting basic data, such as the trains route setting. Reason being it would need to transmit that data regularly, and that it's quite possible the trains route can be reset, and give out information such as that service is cancelled... etc(c on platform PID). On top of that, every day (as their staff know), Veolia's train plan is printed out with the loco, DMU, SD no's of the train. That I would imagine would come into the process as well. I would imagine the real time info would come from both those things, so if one is missing, the other still tells it the route it is taking. I'm only going on hear say and guess work there though, and I could be quite wrong.

In regards to manual override/operation, well I think we've all seen that maybe it's not possible with the many botch ups so far with the platform PID's at Britomart this year, as they seem to simply just turn them off...

[geoff_184]

More evidence of the fact that the real time info is not really in real time. The sign says the 136 bus is 35 minutes away, while in the background you can see the 136 bus sitting at the lights, just seconds from arriving. In reality, the 136 bus approaching had disappeared from the sign about 12 minutes earlier. The sign counted down the minutes, 5, 4, 3, 2, then displayed "DUE", then got deleted from the display, a full 12 minutes before the bus arrived.

Anyone showing up and seeing the sign would think they still have 35 minutes to spare before the next 136 shows up, so walk off to the shops or whatever, only to miss the bus.

Meanwhile, a 154 bus passed by when the display said it was 7 minutes away. People showing up and seeing they still have 5 or so minutes to wait, have actually already missed it.

I really do think these signs are a joke. If they are not GPS based, then they are not real time info. It's all just guess work as it stands, and is so often highly inaccurate.

[kaiwhara]

Im more inclined to believe the PIDs in Wellington.

In saying that, Ive learned that the PIDs on stations in Auckland will get their data from Track Circuit Indications, not GPS (a far better system IMO, and one the UK already uses), and some stations are already live with this.

The advantages of this is, for example, if a train coming towards Newmarket is booked into Platform 3, but is physically routed to Platform 4, the PIDs will change automatically for this Platform Change, and if fitted, automatic announcements made too...