Ticket machines

[Yasukiwi]

After seeing comments both here and to my post on transportblog I now agree that there are only three gates. Seems odd to have such a large space on the station square side. BTW these won't be the only gates at Newmarket. I think the plan is for there to some between the lifts too. This is an old image of the station design and you can just make out the gates by station square that have just been installed so these ones are probably still to go.

Went to Newmarket tonight Matt and they've started work on the other area of gates to go in at Newmarket. Definitely no where on the ones already installed for paper tickets.

[geoff_184]

Went to Newmarket tonight Matt and they've started work on the other area of gates to go in at Newmarket. Definitely no where on the ones already installed for paper tickets.

That'll be what the manual gate is for? Presumably it will have an attendant checking tickets.

[odaikorob]

Folks, having lived in Singapore for some years, the Thales gates that are going into Newmarket and Britomart may very well be the same as the ones installed in SG. As has been previously described by someone else in this blog thread, in SG, the ticket machines dispense a ticket with an extra $1.00 charge on top of the fare cost. That ticket can be read by the gate's tap and go reader and one puts such single journey tickets back into a machine at destination to get the $1.00 deposit back. This effectively recycles tickets and manages OPEX better.

It would be rather pointless for the ticket machines currently installed on AKL station platforms, to dispense a paper ticket that then has to be collected by a person standing at a manual swing gate all the time at Newmarket, Britomart etc. From what I recall of Thales ticketing systems, they dont do this kind of manual paper / automated ticketing setup. Their ticket machines and gates are designed to process tickets with a magnetic stripe on the back and/or process store value cards.

In Hong Kong, the Thales ticket machines dispense mag-striped single journey tickets and the gates process both these tickets and stored value Octopus (HOP-style) cards. Since there seems to be no mag-stripe ticket processing slots on the gates already installed at Newmarket, if the set of gates going in across the main thoroughfare area, also do not have ticket slots in them, AKL will be using the SG-style system. If some of the main thoroughfare gates do have ticket slots in them, AKL will be using the Hong Kong-style mag-stripe / tap and go hybrid system.

[Akarana]

After having a good look at Newmarket today it looks like there will be at least six gates through the centre as others have speculated. They are certainly set back a bit further than I thought, the construction area is in a obstructive but necessary position.

[Nick R]

In Hong Kong, the Thales ticket machines dispense mag-striped single journey tickets and the gates process both these tickets and stored value Octopus (HOP-style) cards. Since there seems to be no mag-stripe ticket processing slots on the gates already installed at Newmarket, if the set of gates going in across the main thoroughfare area, also do not have ticket slots in them, AKL will be using the SG-style system. If some of the main thoroughfare gates do have ticket slots in them, AKL will be using the Hong Kong-style mag-stripe / tap and go hybrid system.

I don't think so. Auckland is getting an integrated ticketing system across all it's modes. A Singapore style bond-and-refund system wouldn't work on most trips that don't end at a station where you can get a refund, i.e. any that ends on a bus. Our system is mostly bus.

My guess is it will be single issue paper RFiD for single tickets, with a non-refundable surcharge over using HOP. The paper print thing might still happen though, because they are currently only planning to gate Newmarket, Britomart and the Downtown Ferry terminal. It would presumably be still quite cost effective to man just those three locations for visual inspection of printed tickets.

[geoff_184]

My guess is it will be single issue paper RFiD for single tickets, with a non-refundable surcharge over using HOP.

Why a surcharge? The paper tickets printed off on buses at present don't have a surcharge. It probably costs about 1 cent to print off a ticket.

[Andrew]

Perhaps you will need the HOP card to gain access to integrated fares, that is, the ability to pay once for an origin-to-destination trip rather than per boarding or per mode used, as well as things like daily capping and such when they come along.

I think this is how London operates too although I can't be sure as we ordered and got our Oyster cards before getting on the plane on our trip there. (edit: clarification: for daily caps and such)

[Matt L]

My guess is it will be single issue paper RFiD for single tickets, with a non-refundable surcharge over using HOP.

Why a surcharge? The paper tickets printed off on buses at present don't have a surcharge. It probably costs about 1 cent to print off a ticket.

Because that dealing with paper tickets adds additional operational costs. First there is the need to maintain and resupply paper ticket machines, at train stations there is the need to have additional staff to check those paper tickets and on buses it slows down boarding. There is a surcharge on buses now in the form of you paying more for a single ticket than the equivalent journey via snapper.

Once again you are mixing up the current fare structure with what we should eventually have once integrated fares are properly rolled out.

[Nick R]

My guess is it will be single issue paper RFiD for single tickets, with a non-refundable surcharge over using HOP.

Why a surcharge? The paper tickets printed off on buses at present don't have a surcharge. It probably costs about 1 cent to print off a ticket.

Because it costs a lot more to handle single issue paper tickets, and could increase dwell time on buses. And if you read what you've quoted me saying above I'm talking about contactless radio frequency paper tickets, the sort that will work with the HOP readers and fare gates, not simple print outs. Those certainly won't cost 1c per ticket to produce.

If it makes you feel better we can call it a discount for paying by reloadable plastic HOP cards. Using a HOP requires less handling and has much faster boarding time than a pay-cash-as-you-go transaction. It makes sense that the latter costs more, not only to charge people more accurately for their costs and impacts, but to also encourage all regular users to switch to the more efficient method.

[eurokiwi78]

I've noticed some of the buses in Sydney do not accept cash at all and the dwell time seems quite short compared to cash fares.

[Matt L]

Auckland Transport have just confirmed to me that anyone using paper tickets will need to go through a separate gate and have their tickets manually checked and clipped. That means the paper tickets issued by the machines will just be plain print outs.

[geoff_184]

Because that dealing with paper tickets adds additional operational costs.

It won't add any cost at all, as the system is already in place. Every bus on the network prints out paper tickets, and every vending machine will print them out as well. Paper tickets will remain as prominent as they are now. It's the ten trips and monthlies etc that HOP replaces, not the one-off fares, which are paper now, and will be paper later.

PT is already expensive enough, without adding surcharges. The 1c cost of a paper ticket is so small it will likely just be absorbed without having to add a surcharge.

If it makes you feel better we can call it a discount for paying by reloadable plastic HOP cards. Using a HOP requires less handling and has much faster boarding time than a pay-cash-as-you-go transaction.

Just as existing concession tickets are discounted over one-off tickets, but that doesn't mean adding a surcharge on top of the already higher fare.

[Akarana]

Centre console of Ticket gates, this includes four standard width gates and one extra width one which looks to have 50-75% more width that the standard ones. Seems to have sprung up over night, was only foundations and wiring yesterday morning.


PR message overlooking the platforms, pretty standard really.


Edit: Captions as I was on a mobile device when I posted before.

[Andrew]

PT is already expensive enough, without adding surcharges. The 1c cost of a paper ticket is so small it will likely just be absorbed without having to add a surcharge.

[...]

Just as existing concession tickets are discounted over one-off tickets, but that doesn't mean adding a surcharge on top of the already higher fare.

Manual validation, needing a human to validate or clip a paper ticket costs more in terms of ongoing staffing than automatic validation with occasional checks. And it's slower. The cost of that should be reflected in the price of your chosen form of ticket.

[pickle]

Auckland Transport have just confirmed to me that anyone using paper tickets will need to go through a separate gate and have their tickets manually checked and clipped. That means the paper tickets issued by the machines will just be plain print outs.

Hmmm. It does give an incentive to use HOP instead to avoid queues.

[odaikorob]

Neither Japan, Korea nor Hong Kong/China have operational issues with managing single journey tickets (mag-stripe type). The majority of similar sized stations in those countries have the same minimal level of staffing as at Newmarket / Britomart. If the new single journey tickets are not a type that can be used to activate the gates at Newmarket / Britomart etc and have to be manually vetted by a person standing at those gates, then that is not good customer service and will be just another opportunity to fare evade. Maintaining / increasing fare revenue is as much in the use of single journey tickets as it is in the use of stored value cards such as HOP. The proof of this is very clear in Japan / Korea and Auckland is no different in this regard. It seems to me that Auckland is modelling itself after rail ticketing systems and procedures used in Australia and the UK - countries which do not have as high a level of farebox collection as in Asia.

It cannot be argued that the systems Japan and Korea have in place, are for their large commuting populations and thus do not apply to Auckland. What many in NZ/Australia, UK/Europe and North America conveniently forget is that in places such as Hokkaido (Japan) for example, many stations are unmanned as the island is predominantly rural. Many stations have no ticket gates, only ticket dispensing machines (as is the case in Auckland). Only major stations are gated and there, the gates process both single journey tickets and the JR Hokkaido 'Kitaca' HOP-style stored value card.

AT would do well to look closely at JR Hokkaido's fare collection system, particularly in Sapporo and surrounding area, as commuter numbers and commuting patterns there, are quite similar to Auckland.

I believe Thales produce a gate that has both a HOP-style reader and a magnetic type ticket processor. If one such gate is not planned to be installed at Newmarket and at Britomart, it should be. I understand that printing of magnetic tickets is not costly and that the Thales ticket machines currently installed in Auckland, can dispense such tickets without problem.

[geoff_184]

Manual validation, needing a human to validate or clip a paper ticket costs more in terms of ongoing staffing than automatic validation with occasional checks. And it's slower. The cost of that should be reflected in the price of your chosen form of ticket.

Manual validation already exists on an even bigger scale, yet doesn't require a surcharge. Therefore there's no reason for one under the new system either.

Adding a surcharge to new users will only encourage a lower uptake of new regular passengers.

Besides, the gates are likely going to have an attendant anyway, so the cost of that attendant should be covered by all users.

[Nick R]

Fine the Geoff, just call it a discount for non-manual ticket validation then! Keep the paper singles at whatever price you like, and have the HOP fares cheaper. It's exactly the same outcome.

[pshemko]

That'd be quite disappointing if the new ticketing system copied all the things that slow movement of passengers down, one of them being manual processing. If you think about how much time is currently wasted on these two operations: bus drivers selling tickets and inspecting paper tickets, having to key in every single one of them and TMs on the trains selling and clipping tickets. Think about the hassle of dealing with physical cash. There definitely should be high premium on those sort of operations, simply because they cost human time. Take into consideration the fact that those operations can not be 'parallelised' as there is only bus driver or TM that has to process all those manual requests, effectively delaying everyone else. If the new system is to be efficient it has to be as much automated as possible, and one way of encouraging people to embrace it is to price the old ways higher then the new ones.

[geoff_184]

Fine the Geoff, just call it a discount for non-manual ticket validation then!

It would be a discount for repeat users, just as it is now. It's not really about whether the ticket is paper or plastic.