City Rail Link (CRL) discussion

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City Rail Link (CRL) discussion

Postby greenwelly » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:53 pm

Archive note: The below message is in reply to the first message on the CRL progress thread here. A full quote of that message has been added for archival purposes. -- Andrew, 06/10/2012

Andrew wrote:3 July 2012: Auckland Transport have released further details of the CRL here.

This includes a media briefing, landowner information and, a gallery, main features are a diagram of Britomart's modifications and a rendition of the interior of Aotea Station.

Image



Err, where did the idea for another stop on the western line between Mt Eden and Kingsland sneak in from????

The plan apparently now has an "inner west interchange station" just between the George St crossing and Dominion Road, between 5 and 600 metres from Kingsland????
Last edited by Andrew on Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Quoted and linked to previous message in full to show context following from CRL progress/discussion topic splitting.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Matt L » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:53 pm

Nothing too new came out of the press briefing.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Andrew » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:02 pm

Matt L wrote:Nothing too new came out of the press briefing.


Pretty pictures!

And the Inner West Interchange Station?
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Nick R » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:06 pm

greenwelly wrote:Err, where did the idea for another stop on the western line between Mt Eden and Kingsland sneak in from????

The plan apparently now has an "inner west interchange station" just between the George St crossing and Dominion Road, between 5 and 600 metres from Kingsland????


Thats the Dominion Interchange station, it's been talked around behind the scenes for some time. The purpose of it is to manage train movements if an eastern link between Newton and Grafton isn't built to cut costs, i.e. the current leading plan is for the CRL to connect to the western line only. If the tunnel portal is designed with that constraint then they have to go and build this new interchange station to turn all the trains around at.

In my opinion it's a pretty retarded solution, and luckily certain individuals have been working tirelessly behind the scenes to ensure the full junction option remains on the table. At one point there were actually going to progress the designation without it.

There are some elements that actually believe the best service pattern is sending everything thorugh the tunnel to terminate at that interchange by Dominion Rd then immediately bounce back through the tunnel again empty. I can only assume those people make a living out of shifting freight and have no concept of passenger service planning.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Nick R » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:20 pm

On a brighter note, yay it all looks pretty choice!

I like the render of the station above. It has two feature I'd really hoped: an island platform (better for circulation and cross-platform transfers) and an open atrium style 'box' with an upper level concourse running the full length (so you can exit to the concourse via the nearest escalator then make your way to the right street exit, rather than having to walk along the platform).

No spanish solution platforms, but we can't expect it to be supremely fantastic.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Andrew » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:39 pm

The tunnel looks to go directly under the TV3 studios and will pop out just behind them. I wonder what they think of that?

edit 3:50pm: The Scott Guy trial and the Auckland storm may drown* some of this out in the news tonight.

*no pun intended.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby jarbury » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:25 pm

What is it with CRL announcements and big other news. The business case came out the day of the 2nd Pike River explosion.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby duddley » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:33 pm

So they want to dig up pretty much the whole of Albert street and demolish the Westfield mall. How will the Britomart bus station cope with being cut in half during construction?
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Mipela » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:37 pm

Dont want to be a sour puss but there is no 'future proffing' for the north shore linkage even if its 30 years away. Mi
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Andrew » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:42 pm

Mipela wrote:Dont want to be a sour puss but there is no 'future proffing' for the north shore linkage even if its 30 years away. Mi


It will be a passenger linkage, not a train one, similar to your typical transfer in most metro systems (London Underground, Paris Métro). Which is good as it keeps mode options for the Shore line open (I am a fan of Nick R's automated light metro à la Vancouver Skytrain, Copenhagen Metro).
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Nick R » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:48 pm

Andrew wrote:
Mipela wrote:Dont want to be a sour puss but there is no 'future proffing' for the north shore linkage even if its 30 years away. Mi


It will be a passenger linkage, not a train one, similar to your typical transfer in most metro systems (London Underground, Paris Métro). Which is good as it keeps mode options for the Shore line open (I am a fan of Nick R's automated light metro à la Vancouver Skytrain, Copenhagen Metro).


The CRL has it's limits, it will handle roughly double the amount of trains we run today. The existing lines are going to need all of that eventually. By the time we get to a North Shore line the CRL will be full anyway and shore trains will have to go in a separate tunnel. Even if a North Shore line were built to exactly the same specifications as the CRL you'd be crazy to send one into the other, that would be some five major rail lines all trying to squeeze onto the same two tracks through the city.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Nick R » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:50 pm

duddley wrote:So they want to dig up pretty much the whole of Albert street and demolish the Westfield mall. How will the Britomart bus station cope with being cut in half during construction?


We'll have no trouble relocating buses from Albert St and parts of Britomart during construction, there is a heap of roadspace in the CBD.... the real battle will be dealing with indignant car drivers that get displaced about the place in favor of buses.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Matt L » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:08 pm

AT have also confirmed in the presentation that the a North Shore line will connect at the Aotea station
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby geoff_184 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:31 pm

Nick R wrote:In my opinion it's a pretty retarded solution, and luckily certain individuals have been working tirelessly behind the scenes to ensure the full junction option remains on the table. At one point there were actually going to progress the designation without it.


If they can't afford a 200m link, how do they expect to pay for the 3.2km link?

Even the full junction, if built at grade, will go down in history as being a mistake. If only the CRL could be that project that finally gets it right!

Matt L wrote:AT have also confirmed in the presentation that the a North Shore line will connect at the Aotea station


At grade, or underneath?
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Matt L » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:33 pm

geoff_184 wrote:
Nick R wrote:In my opinion it's a pretty retarded solution, and luckily certain individuals have been working tirelessly behind the scenes to ensure the full junction option remains on the table. At one point there were actually going to progress the designation without it.


If they can't afford a 200m link, how do they expect to pay for the 3.2km link?

Even the full junction would be a mistake if done at grade, but I suppose doing something properly just isn't on the cards. Not in Auckland.

The issue of the eastern link isn't just about the cost but they are also looking at things like future network patterns too.

Matt L wrote:AT have also confirmed in the presentation that the a North Shore line will connect at the Aotea station


At grade, or underneath?[/quote]
It wouldn't be at grade and I suspect underneath (seeing as it will be at right angles to the CRL and would have to get under Queen St)
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Nick R » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:58 pm

geoff_184 wrote:If they can't afford a 200m link, how do they expect to pay for the 3.2km link?

It's not the link itself that is the issue, it's building th underground junction. Apparently not building it saves hundreds of millions so you can see why they are keen to pull it out. But yes, and Matt says there are some people that think that the best service pattern involves terminating all the trains out by Dominion Rd regadless.

geoff_184 wrote:Even the full junction, if built at grade, will go down in history as being a mistake. If only the CRL could be that project that finally gets it right!
I used to think that, but now I'm starting to think a grade junction will actually be fine.
A grade separated underground junction is even more expensive, to the point where it could be infeasible.

Without it we can still run over 20 trains an hour each way, like we do at Quay Park. For a network of four lines thats still a lot, ten trains an hour on each line.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Matt L » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:10 pm

Nick R wrote:
geoff_184 wrote:If they can't afford a 200m link, how do they expect to pay for the 3.2km link?

It's not the link itself that is the issue, it's building th underground junction. Apparently not building it saves hundreds of millions so you can see why they are keen to pull it out. But yes, and Matt says there are some people that think that the best service pattern involves terminating all the trains out by Dominion Rd regadless.

geoff_184 wrote:Even the full junction, if built at grade, will go down in history as being a mistake. If only the CRL could be that project that finally gets it right!
I used to think that, but now I'm starting to think a grade junction will actually be fine.
A grade separated underground junction is even more expensive, to the point where it could be infeasible.

Without it we can still run over 20 trains an hour each way, like we do at Quay Park. For a network of four lines thats still a lot, ten trains an hour on each line.

Yep, my understanding is that if they don't build the link then the costs for the alternative which is the Inner West Interchange actually end up similar (it would be a substantial station designed to have trains terminate without impacting on the main lines). Part of the reason for dropping the link is that if you eventually build the North Shore line via Aotea then you would hook that up to Parnell and operate the network a bit like a cross, i.e. the North Shore lines would connect to the Airport and Southern Lines while the Eastern and Western lines would be joined up. If that is the case then having a flat junction for the time being might be ok providing that the other junctions are sorted out.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Akarana » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:19 pm

All in all it is great news, even if it is expected.

I see the media presentation gives us a sneak peak at the ADL rebuild... :lol:

Image
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby Mr. Anderson » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:23 pm

That photo is pretty clever at getting just much every transport mode in the one shot.
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Re: City Rail Link (CRL) progress

Postby kaiwhara » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:24 pm

Clever??? Photo??? Hmmm...

Mr. Anderson wrote:That photo is pretty clever at getting just much every transport mode in the one shot.
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