Draft October Timetable

[kaiwhara]

Morning all.

Just a couple of notes on this while I have it in front of me.

The timetable will be fairly similar to now but looks significantly put together better.

No ADL's on weekdays will go south of Manukau.

Of the 5 sets that run peak time Manukau services, 2 are 4 car sets, one being an ADK, the other a pair of ADL's. The 8:08 and 8:28 arrivals into Britomart will be an ADK and ADL4 respectively. Manukau trains will operate a clockface timetable in peak periods every 20 minutes. The 2 Newmarket services from Manukau will no longer run.

A number of existing empty trains have been converted to Services.

Pukekohe trains off peak will become an Hourly service - all off peak services to Pukekohe will be operated by SA's.

The SX utilisation will go up significantly, with the set running two return services to Pukekohe in the morning, and a round trip to Papakura in the Evening.

Limited Stop services are withdrawn, however frequency from Papakura has increased slightly in the same time period.

The gaps between Pukekohe services in the Afternoon Peak have been reduced.

2 ADL's and an ADK will return to Westfield during the day - currently none do this. However a couple extra SA sets will remain on the road - this will likely require overnight refueling at Henderson and Papakura.

Off Peak Manukau and Onehunga services remain at Hourly Frequencies. While the wait at Manukau has unfortunately been retained, both routes have been retimed to be more sensibly placed at junctions.

Several of the first and last trains have been removed. The 5:20 service from Papakura departs 10 minutes later, however the 5:40 service remains at the same time. the 22:40 service ex Britomart is removed due to poor loadings.

Papakura off peak services do run to a clockface timetable, however the gaps between services is no longer 15 minutes, now being 10,20,10,20. However, the Manukau and Onehunga services fill these gaps, so each line on the Loop gets a train roughly every 20 minutes.

The first train in from West arrives at 6:00, 30 minutes before current. This train starts at Henderson however, and the first train in from Swanson no longer runs.

Current Henderson Trains during the day are now Swanson services, those that do terminate return to Henderson Stabling empty, and vice versa.

Ovenight SA allocations have changed. Henderson gets 6 SA's, Britomart has no stablers, Papakura drops to 4 sets (betting this is to allow refueling), Pukekohe retains 3, Westfield keeps the remainder.

Weekend services emain more or less as current. I, like a few others will, find this to be dissapointing.

[Matt L]

Interesting, so no bump in off peak services and it sounds like out west will still be constrained at peak which means there is no capacity for patronage growth (my fellow western line travellers will attest to how full they have been recently)

[Chris Randal.]

Is the 0540 from Britomart to Papakura still running?

[pcuser42]

The SX utilisation will go up significantly, with the set running two return services to Pukekohe in the morning, and a round trip to Papakura in the Evening.

About time

[Aussiedave]

Any weekend services to Pukekohe?

AD

[Nick R]

Manukau trains will operate a clockface timetable in peak periods every 20 minutes. The 2 Newmarket services from Manukau will no longer run.

Good and good!Are they still running some Eastern Line trains to Papakura though?

the 22:40 service ex Britomart is removed due to poor loadings.

Wahh, bad idea. I was wondering when they would start this foolishness.

The last service of the day always has poor loadings, that's what it's job is to do. Nobody plans a regular commute around the last train of the day, no body makes one off plans to catch the last train unless they really have to. The role of the last train is a fall back, an emergency in case people just miss the one before it or they get held up for whatever reason. It will always have poor loadings because few people will use it. But.... if you cut the last train, then the old second to last train becomes the new last train. And people won't rely on that either, they'll shift to an earlier train or make other travel arrangments. So your new last train will soon enough have poor loadings too and also be facing the chop, and so on.

I've seen examples of transit systems in the States where they have successively chopped off the last service due to poor loadings, continuing to do so every six months with the new last service that has newly poor loadings. It doesn't take very long to wind service span back two hours or more until you're last train runs in the shoulder peak, and patronage is way lower across the board.

[eurokiwi78]

the 22:40 service ex Britomart is removed due to poor loadings.

Wahh, bad idea. I was wondering when they would start this foolishness.

Is there still a GSR bus (the 470?) that people could use as last resort or is that also getting the chop?

[Andrew]

The weekend timetable is surely the easiest thing to improve, as it doesn't stretch capacity. It's low-hanging fruit, a quick win, so all the more disappointing that it's not happening.

Are weekend services at least being timed to pulse or connect? Currently going from any West line station to or from, say, Sylvia Park or Manukau (ie, family outing on the train to Rainbows End) is just unworkable during the weekends on the current timetable due to very lengthy waits at Britomart.

[scooter]

the 22:40 service ex Britomart is removed due to poor loadings.

Wahh, bad idea. I was wondering when they would start this foolishness.

The last service of the day always has poor loadings, that's what it's job is to do. Nobody plans a regular commute around the last train of the day, no body makes one off plans to catch the last train unless they really have to. The role of the last train is a fall back, an emergency in case people just miss the one before it or they get held up for whatever reason. It will always have poor loadings because few people will use it. But.... if you cut the last train, then the old second to last train becomes the new last train. And people won't rely on that either, they'll shift to an earlier train or make other travel arrangments. So your new last train will soon enough have poor loadings too and also be facing the chop, and so on.

I've seen examples of transit systems in the States where they have successively chopped off the last service due to poor loadings, continuing to do so every six months with the new last service that has newly poor loadings. It doesn't take very long to wind service span back two hours or more until you're last train runs in the shoulder peak, and patronage is way lower across the board.

Thats what happens when people only look at the numbers and not the reasons WHY people would use a service. Numbers tell you one thing.... understand behaviours is another. Unfortunately 'the numbers' is easy to prove and behaviours is less so, so it tends to be ignored.

[Nick R]

Unfortunately it comes from a very reactionary approach to transport planning. This idea that there is X amount of demand for travel on a certain corridor at a certain time that is invariant, and you either service it or you don't.

The fact that the service levels and routes influence demand doesn't make it into the equation.

[Akarana]

the 22:40 service ex Britomart is removed due to poor loadings.

Wahh, bad idea. I was wondering when they would start this foolishness.

Is there still a GSR bus (the 470?) that people could use as last resort or is that also getting the chop?

Problem I think with that train is that it goes via GI and terminates at Otahuhu (expect Fridays), which might be fine from an operational standpoint but for passengers south of Otahuhu it is less than ideal. Numerous times have I stayed in town late (tonight one of them) where I am restricted to a 10pm last train for anything further south. What is surprising is that these late night trains south easily fill 2-3 cars at times right up the last service. Same for the buses. Kinda unusual seeing standees on a 9.30pm bus but it happens!

[Karlos]

Pukekohe trains off peak will become an Hourly service - all off peak services to Pukekohe will be operated by SA's.

Any peak-time service increases for Pukekohe? Or does the massive gap between the morning 7.01 and 7.34 services remain?

[Akarana]

My thoughts...

No ADL's on weekdays will go south of Manukau.

A welcome change, things get a bit tight come Papatoetoe with inbound off-peak services and diabolical if going around the water. Some of the off-peak ADL services over the hill from Britomart are very full as well.

Manukau trains will operate a clockface timetable in peak periods every 20 minutes. The 2 Newmarket services from Manukau will no longer run.

Off Peak Manukau and Onehunga services remain at Hourly Frequencies. While the wait at Manukau has unfortunately been retained, both routes have been retimed to be more sensibly placed at junctions.

A mixed blessing. Although I welcome the retiming of services so that they don't feel like shoe-horned extended short runners working around other services I do hope they fix some of the following patterns. The afternoon peak Manukau services are notorious for following Papakura/GI services about 2-4 minutes after, making for an unbalanced service delivery and passenger loadings. I really wish they would make Manukau 30 mins off peak as it would make Manukau much more attractive as a destination than it currently is.

A number of existing empty trains have been converted to Services.

Welcomed, some of those empties were crying out to become proper services.

Pukekohe trains off peak will become an Hourly service - all off peak services to Pukekohe will be operated by SA's.

Again, a welcome change, especially for those who commute to/from Puke.

The SX utilisation will go up significantly, with the set running two return services to Pukekohe in the morning, and a round trip to Papakura in the Evening.

About time! I know it is a troubled set but utilising it more is something that has to be done when we are trying to squeeze every little bit of capacity out of our rolling stock.

Limited Stop services are withdrawn, however frequency from Papakura has increased slightly in the same time period.

Alas, was in the making. Should hopefully balance out the loadings on the services around that time as there was a period of no services to some stations for about 20 minutes. Time to scrape the "LS - Limited Stops" signage of the PIDs

[pcuser42]

Time to scrape the "LS - Limited Stops" signage of the PIDs

It's still used more often than "All stops from Grafton" on the destination boards

[kaiwhara]

Im going to try to answer the points raised. If I miss any, let me know. I may have also mucked the quotes up a little. If I have misquoted you, let me know, and ill fix it:

My thoughts...

Manukau trains will operate a clockface timetable in peak periods every 20 minutes. The 2 Newmarket services from Manukau will no longer run.

Off Peak Manukau and Onehunga services remain at Hourly Frequencies. While the wait at Manukau has unfortunately been retained, both routes have been retimed to be more sensibly placed at junctions.

A mixed blessing. Although I welcome the retiming of services so that they don't feel like shoe-horned extended short runners working around other services I do hope they fix some of the following patterns. The afternoon peak Manukau services are notorious for following Papakura/GI services about 2-4 minutes after, making for an unbalanced service delivery and passenger loadings. I really wish they would make Manukau 30 mins off peak as it would make Manukau much more attractive as a destination than it currently is.

There is generally 8 minutes between a Papakura and the Manukau following it.

The SX utilisation will go up significantly, with the set running two return services to Pukekohe in the morning, and a round trip to Papakura in the Evening.

About time! I know it is a troubled set but utilising it more is something that has to be done when we are trying to squeeze every little bit of capacity out of our rolling stock.

They have resolved the door issues with that set, it is now an extreme rarity to see the SX out of service. If it is off the road, it is more likely as they have run out of Locomotives to put on one end of it.

Limited Stop services are withdrawn, however frequency from Papakura has increased slightly in the same time period.

Alas, was in the making. Should hopefully balance out the loadings on the services around that time as there was a period of no services to some stations for about 20 minutes. Time to scrape the "LS - Limited Stops" signage of the PIDs

That was the intention, to make the timetable easier to understand and put together, and become more robust.

Pukekohe trains off peak will become an Hourly service - all off peak services to Pukekohe will be operated by SA's.

Any peak-time service increases for Pukekohe? Or does the massive gap between the morning 7.01 and 7.34 services remain?

Departures from Pukekohe in the Morning Peak are 0536, 0555, 0616, 0629, 0655, 0709, 0736, 0816, 0836 then hourly from 0910.

Is there still a GSR bus (the 470?) that people could use as last resort or is that also getting the chop?

Problem I think with that train is that it goes via GI and terminates at Otahuhu (expect Fridays), which might be fine from an operational standpoint but for passengers south of Otahuhu it is less than ideal. Numerous times have I stayed in town late (tonight one of them) where I am restricted to a 10pm last train for anything further south. What is surprising is that these late night trains south easily fill 2-3 cars at times right up the last service. Same for the buses. Kinda unusual seeing standees on a 9.30pm bus but it happens!

Agreed we should be keeping this train. We fought hard to have it put in place in the first place. The stupid thing is, there are 4 empties (2 via either route) that run Monday to Thursday after the current time of the 2240, and no trains are stabling in Britomart. Surely one of these could stop??

The weekend timetable is surely the easiest thing to improve, as it doesn't stretch capacity. It's low-hanging fruit, a quick win, so all the more disappointing that it's not happening.

Are weekend services at least being timed to pulse or connect? Currently going from any West line station to or from, say, Sylvia Park or Manukau (ie, family outing on the train to Rainbows End) is just unworkable during the weekends on the current timetable due to very lengthy waits at Britomart.

The weekend timetable does not appear to be changing, and Manukau's are still 4 minutes in front of (Southbound), or 4 minutes behind (Northbound) the Newmarket service. I would imagine once again this comes down to staff numbers, as the Weekday increases in services (or where there are not increases in service, rolling stock has changed, meaning more SA drivers will be needed as they will cover a good proportion of off peak work) will need more drivers. Kiwirail have 4 close to sign off now, and plenty more to come, and any increase in Weekend timetables requires more SA's (as that is all we have left). I would say it won't be far away, but we don't have the human resources yet to do so.

Manukau trains will operate a clockface timetable in peak periods every 20 minutes. The 2 Newmarket services from Manukau will no longer run.

Good and good!Are they still running some Eastern Line trains to Papakura though?

During peak periods it will be about half and half, so yes, there will be at least 3 Eastern Line trains per hour to Papakura.

Any weekend services to Pukekohe?

AD

No, and the basis for this is that any weekend service would require the hiring of at least one extra Signalman for Pukekohe to ensure enough coverage in their roster. This would incur extra wage costs which would be fairly substancial and I would say without good loadings, the benefits of doing so would probably not be offset against fuel costs and fares collected. If/when Pukekohe gets transferred to the Waikato desk in Train Control, the cost recovery of providing weekend trains to Pukekohe would reduce dramatically. Until that happens, I would say Pukekohe services on Saturdays and Sundays, with the exception of select special events like the V8's and the Santa Parade would not happen.

Is the 0540 from Britomart to Papakura still running?

Yes, as the 0538 to Pukekohe.

Interesting, so no bump in off peak services and it sounds like out west will still be constrained at peak which means there is no capacity for patronage growth (my fellow western line travellers will attest to how full they have been recently)

There are several extra Swanson services that replace former Henderson Services and run at slightly later times in the mid morning. Mid afternoon they also leave Swanson slightly earlier than they used to leave Henderson.

In Peak Periods, I understand the problem, however simply put, we have run out of trains. The negative for out West is that there are only a very small number of additional services, but only at the Shoulders. However, this timetable requires 3 6 car SA's, all of which are out West during the peaks, and they appear to have been sensibly timed to capture the worst services currently. Three 6 car SA's in a row will arrive from the West Line at 0815, 0830 and 0845, and the 0800 arrival is a 5 car SA. For South and East, all is not lost, as most of the 5 cars are out that way, and there are several 4 car sets on the Manukau services which takes pressure off there. This draft timetable is significantly better written than the current timetable, and capacity is far better allocated than it is now. I realise that it isn't perfect, but having read into it, I can say that they have tried to make the best use of the resources available for the peaks, and I don't think we can really ask any more than that till the EMU's turn up. I don't say this lightly.

I hope this helps.

[Ratchet]

I never been on an SX set. It's not like back in the day where it used to run on the Western line. How would these sets compare to the more common SA sets? Also, will there still be any services earlier than 06:00? Cause is it the first train in to Britomart from the west you're referring to?

[kaiwhara]

Don't know about the SX, as Ive only been on it once myself!

In terms of the West Line. Currently the first service from Waitakere arrives at 0630. The new service from Henderson will arrive at 0600.

I never been on an SX set. It's not like back in the day where it used to run on the Western line. How would these sets compare to the more common SA sets? Also, will there still be any services earlier than 06:00? Cause is it the first train in to Britomart from the west you're referring to?

[Akarana]

They have resolved the door issues with that set, it is now an extreme rarity to see the SX out of service. If it is off the road, it is more likely as they have run out of Locomotives to put on one end of it.

What's the status on the spare SX car? Is it in a usable state now after it got dragged around Auckland that fateful day? I think the visibility issues for the TMs was a bit of a myth.

[kaiwhara]

What's the status on the spare SX car? Is it in a usable state now after it got dragged around Auckland that fateful day? I think the visibility issues for the TMs was a bit of a myth.

I think it's just a spare car. It can be swapped out. Not sure if it has though...

[Karlos]

Departures from Pukekohe in the Morning Peak are 0536, 0555, 0616, 0629, 0655, 0709, 0736, 0816, 0836 then hourly from 0910.

......

If / when Pukekohe gets transferred to the Waikato desk in Train Control

Sorry to be a pain, but of those Pukekohe services, which are via GI and which are via Newmarket?
And as for the Pukekohe panel transferring to Waikato TC, is this in the pipeline? And if so, do you know when?