Short-run branches (Onehunga, Roskill)

[Andrew]

Building the Mt Roskill extension makes a lot of sense given the route protection and above ground running. Without looking at bus timetables, I'm guessing it has the potential to take more than a few buses off Sandringham, Dominion and Mt Eden Roads.

Probably more than taking buses off, frees them up for those in the inner parts of Dominion Rd

Yes true though the overall impact should be fewer buses travelling into town from the Dominion Rd and Sandringham Rd corridors which is good.

I assume that this line cannot be opened until after the CRL due to the maximum number of services on the Western Line? It would be prudent, I guess, to time the build so it was ready for the CRL opening though. What kind of costs would be involved I wonder to use the corridor as a busway, in the meantime, to connect to the Western Line or relocate the Wynyard tram or even run a single EMU back and forwards as a shuttle to the Western Line until the CRL is built? Would the transfer discourage people? Hmmm.....

[kaiwhara]

Yes true though the overall impact should be fewer buses travelling into town from the Dominion Rd and Sandringham Rd corridors which is good.

I assume that this line cannot be opened until after the CRL...

Yes, correct.

...due to the maximum number of services on the Western Line?

No, it's more a problem of not being able to get any more train movements per hour into or out of Britomart.

It would be prudent, I guess, to time the build so it was ready for the CRL opening though.

I shouldn't have thought so - only if it was timed to open concurrently with the CRL - as it would be next to useless in the meantime.

What kind of costs would be involved I wonder to use the corridor as a busway, in the meantime, to connect to the Western Line or relocate the Wynyard tram or even run a single EMU back and forwards as a shuttle to the Western Line until the CRL is built? Would the transfer discourage people I wonder? Hmmm.....

Don't know costs but gut feeling says that wouldnt be entirely sensible - where would the busway feed to? Can existing Western Line Trains take the brunt of the existing Outer Dominion Road and Mt Eden Road bus route catchments? I'm not so convinced it can.

[Nick R]

Yes true though the overall impact should be fewer buses travelling into town from the Dominion Rd and Sandringham Rd corridors which is good.

I assume that this line cannot be opened until after the CRL...

Yes, correct.

Well it could, it just depends on how you want to distribute the services. Perhaps you could have 4tph on the outer Western Line, 2tph on the Mt Roskill Branch (which is also the Western Line short runner), and 6tph on the inner section where they overlap. Might not be too pretty, but it would be possible.

[Hamish O]

Well it could, it just depends on how you want to distribute the services. Perhaps you could have 4tph on the outer Western Line, 2tph on the Mt Roskill Branch (which is also the Western Line short runner), and 6tph on the inner section where they overlap. Might not be too pretty, but it would be possible.

Or you could run less services on the southern or eastern lines.

[Bryce]

...due to the maximum number of services on the Western Line?

No, it's more a problem of not being able to get any more train movements per hour into or out of Britomart.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

It would be prudent, I guess, to time the build so it was ready for the CRL opening though.

I shouldn't have thought so - only if it was timed to open concurrently with the CRL - as it would be next to useless in the meantime.

"so it was ready for the CRL opening" doesn't imply building it ahead of schedule by a year or 2, I didn't think so anyway . Open at the same time (concurrently) would be the idea.

What kind of costs would be involved I wonder to use the corridor as a busway, in the meantime, to connect to the Western Line or relocate the Wynyard tram or even run a single EMU back and forwards as a shuttle to the Western Line until the CRL is built? Would the transfer discourage people I wonder? Hmmm.....

Don't know costs but gut feeling says that wouldnt be entirely sensible - where would the busway feed to? Can existing Western Line Trains take the brunt of the existing Outer Dominion Road and Mt Eden Road bus route catchments? I'm not so convinced it can.

I thought there would be some additional capacity per unit once the EMU's are introduced?

[Bryce]

I assume that this line cannot be opened until after the CRL...

Yes, correct.

Well it could, it just depends on how you want to distribute the services. Perhaps you could have 4tph on the outer Western Line, 2tph on the Mt Roskill Branch (which is also the Western Line short runner), and 6tph on the inner section where they overlap. Might not be too pretty, but it would be possible.

Or you could run less services on the southern or eastern lines.

I don't know it would be a good idea to be running any fewer services on any of the lines at this time.

[Islander]

Yes true though the overall impact should be fewer buses travelling into town from the Dominion Rd and Sandringham Rd corridors which is good.

I assume that this line cannot be opened until after the CRL...

Yes, correct.

...due to the maximum number of services on the Western Line?

No, it's more a problem of not being able to get any more train movements per hour into or out of Britomart.

It would be prudent, I guess, to time the build so it was ready for the CRL opening though.

I shouldn't have thought so - only if it was timed to open concurrently with the CRL - as it would be next to useless in the meantime.

What kind of costs would be involved I wonder to use the corridor as a busway, in the meantime, to connect to the Western Line or relocate the Wynyard tram or even run a single EMU back and forwards as a shuttle to the Western Line until the CRL is built? Would the transfer discourage people I wonder? Hmmm.....

Don't know costs but gut feeling says that wouldnt be entirely sensible - where would the busway feed to? Can existing Western Line Trains take the brunt of the existing Outer Dominion Road and Mt Eden Road bus route catchments? I'm not so convinced it can.

I suspect it has been suggested before but why not have, say, a service running from Mt Roskill direct to Manukau via Newmarket? Anyone wanting to go to/from the city could change at Newmarket.

[Hamish O]

I suspect it has been suggested before but why not have, say, a service running from Mt Roskill direct to Manukau via Newmarket? Anyone wanting to go to/from the city could change at Newmarket.

That would still come at a cost to Britomart services though, as some of them would have changed from 6 to 3 car services to provide the extra sets. Yet another reason to extend the order of EMUs.

[Nick R]

That is a lot of duplicating other services (I.e requiring trains, staff and operating costs) for a pattern that does very little on its own. You'd be better off just terminating it at Newmarket.

[Hamish O]

That is a lot of duplicating other services (I.e requiring trains, staff and operating costs) for a pattern that does very little on its own. You'd be better off just terminating it at Newmarket.

Are you saying you don't think there is much west to south demand?

[Matt L]

That is a lot of duplicating other services (I.e requiring trains, staff and operating costs) for a pattern that does very little on its own. You'd be better off just terminating it at Newmarket.

Are you saying you don't think there is much west to south demand?

I don't think there is as much as people like to think there is, not enough for dedicated services anyway.

[Hamish O]

Remember that this is pre-CRL, so the service could also be used travelling between inner stations on the same line, who get increased frequencies.

[Nick R]

Negligble demand for rail travel from Mt Roskill/Owairaka to Manukau I expect, while other west to south movements are better done by just connecting at Newmarket between lines that will apparently be running every ten minutes. Why wait for a service that runs once or twice an hour when you can just get the next regular train and spend five minutes connecting?

It's the catch: not enough demand to justify high frequency, and not enough frequency to provide a reliable service. It needs the trip generating anchor of the CBD or similar to be useful in its own right.

Likewise I don't expect a Western Line short runner would work if it didn't follow the same path as the long run to the city.

[Bryce]

That is a lot of duplicating other services (I.e requiring trains, staff and operating costs) for a pattern that does very little on its own. You'd be better off just terminating it at Newmarket.

Are you saying you don't think there is much west to south demand?

I don't think there is as much as people like to think there is, not enough for dedicated services anyway.

If we are going to build the Mt Roskil line anyway then wouldn't it be worth trying? At least it gives a low risk way of finding out. Instead of transferring at Newmarket the transfer is done at, what, Mt Albert?

[Andrew]

Negligble demand for rail travel from Mt Roskill/Owairaka to Manukau I expect, while other west to south movements are better done by just connecting at Newmarket between lines that will apparently be running every ten minutes. Why wait for a service that runs once or twice an hour when you can just get the next regular train and spend five minutes connecting?

It's the catch: not enough demand to justify high frequency, and not enough frequency to provide a reliable service. It needs the trip generating anchor of the CBD or similar to be useful in its own right.

Likewise I don't expect a Western Line short runner would work if it didn't follow the same path as the long run to the city.

Assuming sufficient rolling stock, how about combing it with Patrick Reynolds' idea? Roskill-Manukau via Newmarket, coupled with all other West services bypassing Newmarket pre CRL. That way you speed up other West line services as well while still maintaining an easy transfer to Newmarket for people going there.

COI disclosure: Going through Owairaka, this service would directly benefit me.

[Nick R]

Negligble demand for rail travel from Mt Roskill/Owairaka to Manukau I expect, while other west to south movements are better done by just connecting at Newmarket between lines that will apparently be running every ten minutes. Why wait for a service that runs once or twice an hour when you can just get the next regular train and spend five minutes connecting?

It's the catch: not enough demand to justify high frequency, and not enough frequency to provide a reliable service. It needs the trip generating anchor of the CBD or similar to be useful in its own right.

Likewise I don't expect a Western Line short runner would work if it didn't follow the same path as the long run to the city.

Assuming sufficient rolling stock, how about combing it with Patrick Reynolds' idea? Roskill-Manukau via Newmarket, coupled with all other West services bypassing Newmarket pre CRL. That way you speed up other West line services as well while still maintaining an easy transfer to Newmarket for people going there.

COI disclosure: Going through Owairaka, this service would directly benefit me.

You'd have to run that Roskil to Manukau like at six trains an hour too for the transfer to work. Is there really six trains an hour worth of patronage from the west to the inner southern line and Manukau?

It just seems like a whole whack of extra trains and service and cost where the only unique benefit is a link out of those two new stations (from which most passengers will need to transfer off anyway).

I say maybe start a token 2tph service to Britomart via Newmarket to build a bit of patronage, but probably just leave it for the CRL and integrate it properly at that point.

[Chris Randal.]

Is there really six trains an hour worth of patronage from the west to the inner southern line and Manukau?

The way things are going there won't even be 6 tph worth of patronage anywhere....

[pshemko]

If the frequency was right a shuttle (Mt Roskill - Mt Albert) could be sufficient - not that much rolling stock required for this distance. The only issue is temporary stabling and turn aroud at Mt Albert - we could create another Newmarket, but with only two platforms and two tracks, on the other hand perhaps it could run to Morningside?

Mods: perhaps this warrants its own thread (Mt Roskill branch line)?

[luke.xensen]

Southern line will already have plenty of capacity with Onehunga line trains, and no major origin stations along the southern line.
I would of thought a pre CRL patronage filler service would be New Lynn - Newmarket - Parnell - Strand - Orakei - Panmure - Otahuhu
Would fill in the gaps where peak services are likely to be missing out on patronage from inner areas as they are overcrowded, especially with Eastern busway feeding many people to rail at Panmure. I guess could run into issues with Newmarket Junction capacity though.
An alternative could be to run Henderson to Strand services, and have the Britomart bound trains bypass Newmarket.
These would all only run at peak times though.
As for rolling stock best options would be to order extra EMU's required for CRL earlier than needed for CRL, and use them.
Services would only last a year or two and only if CRL is delayed further for various reasons, such as NLTF being broke from National signing off a bunch of RONS in their last few months, or construction delays.

[Islander]

From what I have read there is fairly high numbers of passengers alighting at Grafton in the mornings and presumably the reverse in the afternoon. If there was a Roskill - Manukau service those wishing to travel to Grafton from Mt Albert to Mt Eden could use these trains which could reduce loadings on the current West Auckland services.
As for the comments about not much demand for... What proof is there for this when there has not been a non transfer service like this offered in the past? The attraction of a through service South - Inner West & back may well be a tipping point in favour. IMHO the sooner that the Avondale - Onehunga (and onto the Airport) line is started the better.