Howick Railway Line Proposal

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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:58 am

Yes now you mention it Nick I think a route south of the Panmure basin makes more sense. There's also an undeveloped corridor through there currently used by pylons. Perhaps getting them undergrounded would happen in conjunction with freeing up that corridor for rail. That undeveloped corridor actually continues right through to the power substation next to the Ellerslie-Penrose motorway interchange... interesting potential for a further link between the southern and eastern line perhaps?
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby Nick R » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:17 am

Why the deviation away from Ti Rakau Drive at east tamaki Jarbury? Assuming that AMETI goes ahead the first row of properties fronting Ti Rakau will be bought and demolished, so it make sense to run the line there.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:42 am

Well if that happens then yes the rail corridor would hopefully be provided for in AMETI. I guess my thinking is that a railway line isn't really something you necessarily want right next door to a main road - due to vehicle crossings etc. Of course if the land had been acquired anyway that problem becomes less significant.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby john-ston » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:51 am

Nick R wrote:The line from Panmure would have to come around south of the lagoon and cross next to the SEART bridge.

How about a route partway up Pakuaranga Rd, then back across the edge of the park and golf course toward Botany town centre.


Problem with any alignment along Pakuranga Road is the Glenmore Road to Cascades Road section - that would require a massive viaduct. BTW, I have part of a route map ready to show you guys; I'll have it up this afternoon - it is only for part of the route, but once you see it, you will probably get the gist of my proposed route.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:54 am

Yes Pakuranga Road is hardly flat. What are the contours like along Reeves Road? I guess fairly significant as there's a suburb on Google Earth called "Pakuranga Heights" located at the corner of Reeves Road and Gossamer Drive.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby john-ston » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:56 am

jarbury wrote:Yes Pakuranga Road is hardly flat. What are the contours like along Reeves Road? I guess fairly significant as there's a suburb on Google Earth called "Pakuranga Heights" located at the corner of Reeves Road and Gossamer Drive.


Reeves Road has a pretty steep upgrade leading from William Roberts Road to Cardiff Road.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby Nick R » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:52 pm

jarbury wrote:Well if that happens then yes the rail corridor would hopefully be provided for in AMETI. I guess my thinking is that a railway line isn't really something you necessarily want right next door to a main road - due to vehicle crossings etc. Of course if the land had been acquired anyway that problem becomes less significant.


The AMETI report proposes that section in a trench to deal with cross roads and the like, I guess driveway crossings aren't an issue if you bulldoze all the houses down one side :)

John-ston, are we going to see a development of your Glenn Innes > Pt England > Farm Cove route you have mentioned in the past?
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby john-ston » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:56 pm

Nick R wrote:John-ston, are we going to see a development of your Glenn Innes > Pt England > Farm Cove route you have mentioned in the past?


Yes; the map has all the properties that could be needed to be acquired, and I have counted them. To get as far as just beyond Mirrabooka Drive requires 242 properties; a number of them, however, is because the land would be needed for their driveways.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:15 pm

Possible alignment further to the north:

Image

It could go even further north towards Highland Park I suppose. I'm not sure if I would advocate going all the way to Highland Park though, as that means you're pretty much stuck with going from there to Pakuranga via Pakuranga Road... and all the problems relating to its slopes that would apply. My route would probably need to tunnel under Pakuranga Heights though....

Hmm... not easy. Maybe the Ti Rakau Drive option would work best simply due to it being less hilly.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby john-ston » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:47 pm

Here are two maps, indicating the properties that would need to be acquired in my vision. The only section that isn't shaded in is around Howick Intermediate; I propose that the line dive underground underneath the shops

Image
Image
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:58 pm

Bridge or tunnel across the Tamaki River?
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby john-ston » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:08 pm

Here is map two

Image
Image

I would prefer a bridge, solely because a tunnel would be far more complex to construct given the geology.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:15 pm

Your line does get quite far east. I guess with a bit of a swoop to the east and north it probably caters for a larger population area. Any idea what the topography is line around there? I know that my Nana lines on Highland Park Drive, which is quite steep.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby john-ston » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:31 pm

jarbury wrote:Your line does get quite far east. I guess with a bit of a swoop to the east and north it probably caters for a larger population area. Any idea what the topography is line around there? I know that my Nana lines on Highland Park Drive, which is quite steep.


That is the one issue. I am aware that a part of Botany Road has a steep downward incline, and there is some variable topography on the Bucklands Beach peninsula. I once knew someone with a reasonable topographical map of the area, however, I have lost contact with them. The only one I can work with is the Manukau City Council one.

Also, regarding your earlier bridge or tunnel question, based on my route, it would probably be preferable to have a bridge and the bridge itself may go as far as Pigeon Mountain School given the topography of the area - the first houses are virtually all on a cliff face :o
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:36 am

Where would your stations be?
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby saljen » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:34 am

Wow. thats really far north. I live about 30m from Pigeon mountain school (on the other side ). The topogrophy would be quite difficult there. Pigeon mountain school would be a good 15-20m above the water line. Its a very steep walk. The gradient there for instance would be much steeper than the first section of Pakuranga road. Then around Lloloma drive, the ground falls and rises very quickly and very steeply, once you get to Bucklands beach road, you have basically reached the top of the ridge, but everything before that on the eastern side is rather up and down.

I think your idea has merit but you have chosen a difficult route. i think this one below would be a better route. I dont know how you guys feel about Mangroves but the east has some wonderfully located creeks full of them,. A rail line could be built over them with minimal destruction as in Hobson bay.

This route takes advantage of the flatter land around this area, but would need a tunnel under the houses around Casuarina drive (marked in blue), but after that, it really is plain sailing. The tunnel would need to be slightly sloping upward. This would cause minimal disruption and if the tunnel is built I believe very few, if any houses will have to be destroyed. A much better option IMO.

I was surprised when I had a look at google earth but from Highland park to Botany town centre 0 houses would have to be removed. Its all publicly owned land, mangrove creeks, or light industrial land. Also as soon as you get off Te Irrirangi and slightly to the west the route from Botany south to Manukau is quite easy also. Light industrial, undeveloped land, and the only area of housing is actually state housing.
Image

A closer look at the route.
Image
Image
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby saljen » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:49 am

Also, John Ston. I believe your map may be very difficult. You've gone up to Howick intermediate and that ridge up there is probably the highest point in the Howick-Pakuranga area. The road up there is simply called 'ridge road'. The gradient is not steep to get up there, but it is very steep coming down on the Botany side.

i think your idea is a great improvement on the pakuranga road route or the Ti Rakau route.
It seems to involve less actual rail track and covers a far greater area. But just the actual route you have taken is difficult iMO. In that area. Bucklands Beach rd, Aviemore drive and botany road, (from the golf course to the shopping centre) is a dead flat route with few problems. That would be the best way IMO. Going up to ridge road would involve climbing, descending, bridges and possibly tunnels.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby jarbury » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:51 am

Very interesting route saljen. Apart from the obvious concerns about environmental effects on these creeks, my other worry would be that there seems to be quite a lot of sharp bends.

The other thing is that a bridge over the Tamaki River this far north is going to be way longer than one down near the two existing bridges. That would have significant cost implications.
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby saljen » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:06 am

jarbury wrote:Very interesting route saljen. Apart from the obvious concerns about environmental effects on these creeks, my other worry would be that there seems to be quite a lot of sharp bends.

The other thing is that a bridge over the Tamaki River this far north is going to be way longer than one down near the two existing bridges. That would have significant cost implications.



The sharp bends are probably more to do with my drawing ability than anything else. If you have a good look at the route, im sure they could send a smooth track through there. My rail line was just roughly drawn.

Yes. The bridge will be longer up here. But in support of it, building another bridge down near the other two might involve unnecessary delays on the existing bridges. It would be difficult to build a new bridge while traffic was flowing heavily on one nearby.
2) A route through Pakuranga Rd especially would involve a huge amount of disruption and possibly large amounts of property reclamation. This route would involve the least expense in actually building the route which may make up for the longer bridge.

3) A longer bridge in this spot creates a shorter rail line through the entire area.

4) It is well located to join up with the rail line on the other side of the water. See image below.
Image
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Re: Howick Railway Line Proposal

Postby john-ston » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:34 am

saljen wrote:Wow. thats really far north. I live about 30m from Pigeon mountain school (on the other side ). The topogrophy would be quite difficult there. Pigeon mountain school would be a good 15-20m above the water line. Its a very steep walk. The gradient there for instance would be much steeper than the first section of Pakuranga road. Then around Lloloma drive, the ground falls and rises very quickly and very steeply, once you get to Bucklands beach road, you have basically reached the top of the ridge, but everything before that on the eastern side is rather up and down.


Pigeon Mountain School is actually 30 metres above sea level according to the Manukau City Council topographic maps. Yes, the gradient is relatively steep, however, it would be reasonably easy to construct as a viaduct - it would make for one hell of a bridge though. Looking at those same maps, the route is alright until we reach around O'Halloran Road, where the grade climbs again - the advantage there though is that I always viewed Howick Station as being under the shops.

saljen wrote:I think your idea has merit but you have chosen a difficult route. i think this one below would be a better route. I dont know how you guys feel about Mangroves but the east has some wonderfully located creeks full of them,. A rail line could be built over them with minimal destruction as in Hobson bay.

This route takes advantage of the flatter land around this area, but would need a tunnel under the houses around Casuarina drive (marked in blue), but after that, it really is plain sailing. The tunnel would need to be slightly sloping upward. This would cause minimal disruption and if the tunnel is built I believe very few, if any houses will have to be destroyed. A much better option IMO.


I don't have any serious objections to your suggestion. It goes far enough east to allow the route to still adequately serve the Howick area. Only problem could be the mangroves though, and the taking of all those parks.

saljen wrote:Also, John Ston. I believe your map may be very difficult. You've gone up to Howick intermediate and that ridge up there is probably the highest point in the Howick-Pakuranga area. The road up there is simply called 'ridge road'. The gradient is not steep to get up there, but it is very steep coming down on the Botany side.


It is around Mirrabooka Road that we hit difficulties again with the grade - it hits a 1 in 20 around there. Basically, the three challenging areas of my proposal are

- The bridge and Bucklands Beach side approaches
- The proposed Howick Station and surrounds
- Mirrabooka Drive

saljen wrote:i think your idea is a great improvement on the pakuranga road route or the Ti Rakau route.
It seems to involve less actual rail track and covers a far greater area. But just the actual route you have taken is difficult iMO. In that area. Bucklands Beach rd, Aviemore drive and botany road, (from the golf course to the shopping centre) is a dead flat route with few problems. That would be the best way IMO. Going up to ridge road would involve climbing, descending, bridges and possibly tunnels.


That is why I started this thread; see if everything could work. I'll take a look at the Manukau City Council topographical maps again; the only problem with them is that you need to look quite close up.

jarbury wrote:Where would your stations be?


Bucklands Beach Station - Bucklands Beach Road
Howick Station - corner of Botany Road & Ridge Road
Botany Station - Botany Town Centre
Ormiston Road Station - corner of Ormiston Road & Te Irirangi Drive
Manukau Station - proposed Manukau Station site

Each station would have bus interchanging facilities and I cannot imagine that Park n Ride would be possible, except perhaps for Ormiston Road Station, and maybe Botany if an agreement could be reached with AMP.

saljen wrote:Yes. The bridge will be longer up here. But in support of it, building another bridge down near the other two might involve unnecessary delays on the existing bridges. It would be difficult to build a new bridge while traffic was flowing heavily on one nearby.


Also, depending on design, one could always do a degree of land reclamation - the river loses about half of its width at low tide, and doing a Hobson Bay solution may work. Certainly, a bridge is far more possible than a tunnel, as you would need to go reasonably deep down to get away from the sand. Also, East Auckland has a lot of sandstone, making it unstable. Of course, for my one, it may not be possible because the line would need to clear the fifteen metre mark at the Bucklands Beach end.
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