Bicycles on trains

[keg]

Policy change is being considered at next weeks T&A committee meeting - if approved it will go to consultation.

Main points:

• consistent policy for both types of EMU (Ganz & Matangi)
• limit of 3 bikes per 2-car unit proposed
• bikes banned at peak times in the peak direction (7am - 9am inbound; 4pm - 6pm outbound)
• carriage of bikes to remain free
• fully folding compact bikes can be carried at any time if folded

Details: GWRC Report 10.398


Comment: the peak hour ban is an inevitable consequence of carrying cycles in the passenger area and doing away with the dog box ...

[pickle]

I think its acceptable to ban bikes in peak times

[john-ston]

I think its acceptable to ban bikes in peak times

I disagree mostly on the basis that unlike car drivers who get Park n Ride facilities, and bus users that get bus services, a bicycle rider has no secure way of storing their bicycle. Also, having use of a bicycle can make it convenient for the user if their end destination is some distance away from the train station.

[MrRobot]

Normal bikes take up a lot of room, and even if they allowed them during peak times you wouldn't fit many on. I think folding bikes will be allowed with no limit during peak times. There should also be secure cycle storage at stations (I think there are some at Petone and elsewhere but not very many).

[Scott]

I disagree mostly on the basis that unlike car drivers who get Park n Ride facilities, and bus users that get bus services, a bicycle rider has no secure way of storing their bicycle. Also, having use of a bicycle can make it convenient for the user if their end destination is some distance away from the train station.

I would think a bike locked with a D lock to a bike rack or fence at a station would be equally secure as a car. I think using a bike to commute to a RTN station should be actively encouraged, It does suck a bit if it rains though.

[pickle]

If you have secure cycle locking facilities at EVERY station then not allowing them during peak times is fine...

[keg]

I disagree mostly on the basis that unlike car drivers who get Park n Ride facilities, and bus users that get bus services, a bicycle rider has no secure way of storing their bicycle. Also, having use of a bicycle can make it convenient for the user if their end destination is some distance away from the train station.

I'm surprised that you support bicycles on trains during the peak given that you have previously indicated that maximising seated capacity in a priority - carrying even a single bicycle on a Matangi reduces the number of seats by five.

Cycle lockers and racks are effectively P&R facilities for bicycles. The lockers are probably more secure than an P&R car park as they are fully enclosed, but there are only limited numbers available. As Scott said, racks are probably similar to a car park - both cars and bicycles are outside and potential targets for vandals or thieves.


Cycle rack at Plimmerton - why is this less secure than a P&R car park?

[Andrew]

Full lockers are definitely more convenient - shove the whole bike inside instead of taking time removing head/taillights, speedo and any other removeable itema, and threading the chain through the frame and both wheels to secure the thing - can take several minutes to do and another several minutes to reattach everything when you come back afterwards.

Also my bike's not cheap, I'd rather not have it on display with a bikelock that any good pair of bolt cutters could cut through.

[john-ston]

I'm surprised that you support bicycles on trains during the peak given that you have previously indicated that maximising seated capacity in a priority - carrying even a single bicycle on a Matangi reduces the number of seats by five.

It does come as a surprise, however, consider that the seats that are sacrificed for a bicycle are tip-up seats - the same sort of seats that are sacrificed for wheelchairs. To be honest, tip-up seats are not always that useful - you can fit one person comfortably, or two people at a squeeze.

I cannot imagine that there would be a huge number of people who would wish to use their bicycles during peak hour anyway - how many bicycles are found in your typical guards van on a Ganz unit during peak hour at the moment?

Cycle lockers and racks are effectively P&R facilities for bicycles. The lockers are probably more secure than an P&R car park as they are fully enclosed, but there are only limited numbers available. As Scott said, racks are probably similar to a car park - both cars and bicycles are outside and potential targets for vandals or thieves.

I am in agreement with Andrew in that bicycle racks aren't really all that secure - a good pair of bolt cutters, and you have fled with a bicycle that will probably never be recovered.

If you have secure cycle locking facilities at EVERY station then not allowing them during peak times is fine...

I can largely agree with that.

I suppose the other thing that is of concern is having a blanket ban - services at around 7am to 7:30am aren't likely to be crowded, and neither are services at around 5:30pm to 6pm. I would suggest a service by service ban if things really got extremely necessary

[Daniel]

Cycle rack at Plimmerton - why is this less secure than a P&R car park?

With a decent set of bolt cutters you could make off with that bike. And surely someone could still pinch the seat or anything else not chained to that dumb-looking rack? which BTW doesn't give the bike much protection from the elements. In any case Railway stations seem to attract vandalism, It's as though vandals are out of the public eye unless there's CCTV to watch them. I'm all in favour of cycle lockers at every station personally, how much more can they cost than that absurd rack at Plimmerton?

[keg]

I am in agreement with Andrew in that bicycle racks aren't really all that secure - a good pair of bolt cutters, and you have fled with a bicycle that will probably never be recovered.

How secure are car parks? A rock, a broken window and anything inside has gone (and will probably never be recovered). Btw, I never said bike racks were secure:

both cars and bicycles are outside and potential targets for vandals or thieves.

In any case Railway stations seem to attract vandalism, It's as though vandals are out of the public eye unless there's CCTV to watch them. I'm all in favour of cycle lockers at every station personally, how much more can they cost than that absurd rack at Plimmerton?

Largely agree - more CCTV & cycle lockers. But I think the cost of lockers is significantly more than the racks.

To be honest, tip-up seats are not always that useful - you can fit one person comfortably, or two people at a squeeze.

I presume you haven't seen the plans for the Matangi then - they indicate five single foldings seats in a row in the cycle area.

[john-ston]

How secure are car parks? A rock, a broken window and anything inside has gone (and will probably never be recovered). Btw, I never said bike racks were secure:

The difference though is that the car is still there, and you would be nuts to leave valuables inside. The bicycle, on the other hand, is gone forever.

I presume you haven't seen the plans for the Matangi then - they indicate five single foldings seats in a row in the cycle area.

Nope, unless it is made public, I don't see them.

[keg]

Nope, unless it is made public, I don't see them.

They have been. See first post in the Matangi thread.

The difference though is that the car is still there, and you would be nuts to leave valuables inside. The bicycle, on the other hand, is gone forever.

The car is still there in a vandalised state.

[john-ston]

They have been. See first post in the Matangi thread.

I have taken a look, and there aren't any plans there - all that I saw was five pages of text that included the five tip-up seats comment.

[keg]

Quoting from that post:

Some info on Wellingtons Matangi EMUs: Matangi fact sheet [PDF].

(See page 4.)

Also:

Low floor area of trailer carriage:

Note the bicycle.

[The King]

From the newspaper:

Cyclists could be forced to rethink their travel plans as Wellington's new trains cut the amount of space available for bikes in peak times.

Greater Wellington regional council is reviewing the rules for bikes on trains, with a policy due to go out for public consultation in the coming weeks.

Among the changes being considered is a ban on bikes in peak times – a move labelled short-sighted by cycling advocates.

Cyclists face squeeze on new trains

[mivilleb]

Until we have secure bike sheds or sufficient lockers at every stations, bringing your bike on the train is the only way. I use the train to go to work everyday mainly because:

• I want to be at work early (~7:30-40, it is still within the peak hours, unfortunately)
• there is no bus to bring me at that time, I sometime finish late and there is not bus after 6:30pm
• I want to combine transport and exercise
• I want to avoid adding more pollution by driving a car

So the combination of train/bike is the perfect way for me to go to work (during peak hours). The Pamphlet from GWRC said that there is a dedicated bike area, that is obviously not true if you need to lift 5 seats!

http://www.punk.co.nz/files/Matangi_FACT_SHEET.pdf

One solution is to have bike sheds or lockers available at every stations. There is dedicated parking for cars (they needed to buy land, put asphalt, make lines and maintain it), why not for bike (it would cost less than making a car parking lot). Attaching your bike on a pole or fence, is not a secure solution for bike, it will be gone by the time you come back to pick it up. Considering that the new train project cost over $500 million, adding bike sheds should cost peanuts in comparison.

Here is an article that came out today in the Dominion Post:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/local/4010618/Cyclists-face-squeeze-on-new-trains

[mivilleb]

Until we have secure bike sheds or sufficient lockers at every stations, bringing your bike on the train is one way for users to go where trains or bus do not reach. I use the train to go to work everyday mainly because:

• I want to be at work early (~7:30-40, it is still within the peak hours, unfortunately)
• there is no bus to bring me at that time, I sometime finish late and there is not bus after 6:30pm
• I want to combine transport and exercise
• I want to avoid adding more pollution by driving a car

So the combination of train/bike is the perfect way for me to go to work (during peak hours). The Pamphlet from GWRC said that there is a dedicated bike area, that is obviously not true if you need to lift 5 seats!

http://www.punk.co.nz/files/Matangi_FACT_SHEET.pdf

One solution is to have bike sheds or lockers available at every stations. There is dedicated parking for cars (they needed to buy land, put asphalt, make lines and maintain it), why not for bike (it would cost less than making a car parking lot). Attaching your bike on a pole or fence, is not a secure solution for bike, it will be gone by the time you come back to pick it up. Considering that the new train project cost over $500 million, adding bike sheds should cost peanuts in comparison.

Here is an article that came out today in the Dominion Post:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/local/4010618/Cyclists-face-squeeze-on-new-trains

[Daniel]

How much would it cost to have decent and secure (and I mean something much better that that pathetic bike rack pictured at the Plimmerton station) rentable bike shelters installed at every station? ten thousand dollars at the very most?

[keg]

One solution is to have bike sheds or lockers available at every stations. There is dedicated parking for cars (they needed to buy land, put asphalt, make lines and maintain it), why not for bike (it would cost less than making a car parking lot). Attaching your bike on a pole or fence, is not a secure solution for bike, it will be gone by the time you come back to pick it up. Considering that the new train project cost over $500 million, adding bike sheds should cost peanuts in comparison.

Largely agree. Be interesting to know the costs (both constructing and maintaining the space/locker). Also raises the issue of whether motorists should pay for parking at stations (as cyclists are expected to hire a locker).

The Pamphlet from GWRC said that there is a dedicated bike area, that is obviously not true if you need to lift 5 seats!

Yes, unfortunately the peak ban was inevitable when they made that design decision. I suspect the current consultation is largely a rubber stamping exercise.
(Btw, welcome to the forum mivilleb.)

decent and secure

Something like these?

Some stations have them, but they could do with more. And the procedure for hiring them could be simplified.