Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby keg » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:01 pm

PBYCatalina wrote:I was also wondering if anyone had te information on the distance between Hamilton and Tauranga, Hamilton and Rotorua and how long the Kaimai Express and geyserland Express used to take.


Going right back to the beginning of the thread, here are the times for the Kaimai Express and Geyserland from Tranz Scenic's October 1998 timetable:

Kaimai Express

Tauranga – Auckland
Code: Select all
Tauranga       08:05
Morrinsville   09:07
Hamilton       09:33
Huntly         10:04
Pukekohe   (b) 10:49
Papakura   (b) 11:05
Middlemore (b) 11:21
Auckland       11:40


Auckland – Tauranga
Code: Select all
      
Auckland       18:05
Middlemore (a) 18:24
Papakura   (a) 18:37
Pukekohe   (a) 18:52
Huntly         19:37
Hamilton       20:06
Morrinsville   20:31
Tauranga       21:30


(a) Stops only to pick up passengers
(b) Stops only to set down passengers

The Geyserland

Auckland – Rotorua
Code: Select all
Auckland       08:04
Middlemore (a) 08:24
Papakura   (a) 08:37
Pukekohe   (a) 08:52
Huntly         09:37
Hamilton       10:09
Morrinsville   10:35
Matamata       11:01
Putaruru       11:27
Rotorua        12:17


Rotorua – Auckland
Code: Select all
Rotorua        13:30
Putaruru       14:25
Matamata       14:51
Morrinsville   15:17
Hamilton       15:45
Huntly         16:11
Pukekohe   (b) 16:55
Papakura   (b) 17:11
Middlemore (b) 17:27
Auckland       17:46


(a) Stops only to pick up passengers
(b) Stops only to set down passengers
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby geoff_184 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:14 pm

I preferred the original Geyserland/Kaimai timetable, with two trains to Rotorua. Does anyone have that handy?
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby PBYCatalina » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:00 am

So the old services used to take about 2 hours to get from Auckland to Hamilton. What imporvements would need to be made to get that down to 90 minutes?
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby eurokiwi78 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:33 am

PBYCatalina wrote:So the old services used to take about 2 hours to get from Auckland to Hamilton. What imporvements would need to be made to get that down to 90 minutes?


Fix up the temporary speed restrictions and dont stop in so many places (And track amplification north of Papakura).
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby PBYCatalina » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:53 am

.. becasue 90 minutes is competative with car travel, even with the new motorway being constructed.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby Nick R » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:37 pm

Shave 30 mins of the Hamilton run and you get the Tauranga and Rotorua runs down to about 3 hours, which is also competitive with driving and flying.
I should still listen to Doloras.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby john-ston » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:45 pm

Nick R wrote:Shave 30 mins of the Hamilton run and you get the Tauranga and Rotorua runs down to about 3 hours, which is also competitive with driving and flying.


Not only that, but you could bring Morrinsville into commuting distance. If you manage to get Auckland to Hamilton down to ninety minutes and Hamilton to Tauranga down to sixty minutes, then Tauranga comes into commuting distance as well. Not only that, but it would make Tauranga a much more attractive business location (as you can still do business in a day in Auckland).
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby PBYCatalina » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:49 am

A 60 minute train from Hamilton to Tauranga would mean commuting between those 2 cities would be on the cards for lots of people. You could easily live in Tauranga and work or study in Hamilton and vice versa. (It used to take me more than 60 min to drive to work when i was living in Auckland)
With about 150,000 people in Hamilton City and around 120,000 people in Tauranga I think this link in itself could be very beneficial to the economy of both cities and regions.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby pickle » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 pm

I agree
Here's an idea: we could use ex Auckland trains to run the yellow line when we get electrification (although I would prefer CHCH to get them first)
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby PBYCatalina » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:43 pm

louis wrote:I agree
Here's an idea: we could use ex Auckland trains to run the yellow line when we get electrification (although I would prefer CHCH to get them first)


yes a few ex-Auckland trasins could get this netwrok off the ground at relativly low cost.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby geoff_184 » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:57 am

I was wondering how long the journey would take if new rolling stock was acquired?


Would be the same time as for the Silver Fern, as new stock alone will not enable the introduction of higher speeds. Higher speeds require track upgrades.

The ferns can do 140km/h easily, but they don't do more than 110km/h because that's what the track is maintained to.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby luke.xensen » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:15 pm

Any idea of what sort of track upgrades are needed for 140kmh running? Or is it generally just a much higher standard of maintenance and inspection that is difficult to justify for a couple of trains a day?
i know it depends on what routes a being upgraded, just trying to get a feel for whether you might need $1 million, $10 million or $100 million to upgrade the line to Hamilton.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby john-ston » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:51 pm

It really comes down to the curves; duplication and realignment of the line from Caboolture to Beerburrum in Queensland (about 12km) cost over A$250 million and that was designed to a 160km/h standard. To bring the line from Auckland to Hamilton up to 160km/h standard would probably cost a couple of billion dollars, but could be staged over a period.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby lcmortensen » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:01 pm

You could realistically achieve 140km/h on the MSL across Canterbury Plains, if the rail was maintained to 140km/h standard.

The only major thing i would think of about the Canterbury Pains is AFAIK the line is Track Warrant Control. You'd need to upgrade to CTC and Automatic Block Signalling, otherwise you may end up with a rear-end collision with a freight train - potentially hazardrous if you are going 40 metres every second.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby geoff_184 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:09 pm

It's CTC all the way down to Oamaru.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby JohnE in Scotland » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:02 am

"You could realistically achieve 140km/h on the MSL across Canterbury Plains, if the rail was maintained to 140km/h standard".

Speed raising is about a variety of factors. Design alignment is certainly one of them, and that may also include vertical alignment. But maintenance needs to be to much tighter standards. (In the UK it's known as Track Quality). The tolerances really get tightened up as the speeds increase, i.e. permitted variations in alignment, cross level, gauge, dips at welds and joints, rail fatigue flaw detection. All this means more frequent track recording and visual inspections, and interventions by tamping machines. The condition and type of track components is crucial. Heavier rail CWR with steel or concrete sleepers above 120 kph, so any wooden sleepers and jointed track should be renewed. Ballast condition is an important consideration; good clean interlocking stone for enhanced track support and drainage.

Fortunately many of the track structure needs already exist in NZ, but all the same authorised higher speeds don't come cheap. But having said all that the railcars of 40 years ago regularly exceeded 70 mph.

Included in other factors that need to be considered are signal sighting distances, level crossing strike in distances, impact loadings on bridges. Any points where existing tight clearances could be at risk due to larger "kinematic envelope" that comes with higher speed. Lineside safety requirements may also need upgraded. Full fencing ? New trains with enhanced braking capability.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby lcmortensen » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:11 am

Level crossings with at least automatic alarms would be a must, and barrier arms on major crossings. You don't need to grade separate right away - if people are dumb enough to run the red flashing lights and drive around the barrier arms, they deserve to be hit by a train doing 140km/h.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby PBYCatalina » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:12 am

I dont think you would need 160km/h speeds between Auckland and hamiltion, just enough to get the travel time between britomart and hamilton underground down to 90 minutes. My estimate is that a speed limit somewhere between 120-125km/h would be sufficient to get the time down to 90 minutes. But that would assume ability to go that speed north of papakura and may requre track amplification.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby greenwelly » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:43 am

lcmortensen wrote:Level crossings with at least automatic alarms would be a must, and barrier arms on major crossings. You don't need to grade separate right away - if people are dumb enough to run the red flashing lights and drive around the barrier arms, they deserve to be hit by a train doing 140km/h.


The problem is at 140km/h it tends to do enough damage to the train to derail it.
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Re: Inter-regional Rail service distances and times

Postby geoff_184 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:11 pm

I'm sure I read somewhere that maintenance of a 120km/h line costs about twice as much as for a 100km/h line. If that's true, then could a little country with limited funding actually afford such speeds? It's hard enough to secure funding for existing line maintenance let alone increasing it. As for 140km/h or faster, I think it's probably pie in the sky stuff for NZ. It would just be too costly without a much greater population to provide the funding.
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