Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby john-ston » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:51 pm

Daniel wrote:I doubt it's technically feasible to convert the SA's into DMU's Jodi.


If it is impossible to stick an engine underneath the SAs, then that is fine - I was merely floating the idea.

Daniel wrote:Besides, they do a fine job as push-pull units. They might only be used a few years in on peak express services. On off-peak services would more than 6 DMU's be needed?


I am not doubting how fine they do their current job, the issue is that the locomotives are fuel thirsty compared with DMUs. The costs of leasing the locomotives are enormous as well. If one could stick a motor underneath each of say 20 SD carriages at a cost of $1 million each, then that could be more than covered by fuel and lease savings.

Daniel wrote:But I doubt the initial service that would be introduced would need to be the same as that of 1959.


Daniel, only the Lyttleton run was roughly every half hour during peak and every hour during off-peak in 1959. The Rangiora run by that point was four services ex Christchurch and five services ex Rangiora a day, and Burnham was a once a day return run which went contra-peak. There was also a separate Springfield service which ran once a day return.

Daniel wrote:Initially merely a service between Rolleston (not Burnham) and the new CDB terminus would be logical. 1/2 hour at-peak and 1 hour off-peak with the DMU's stopping at new stations en-route.
A similar service between Rangiora and a new CBD terminus would be next with the Addington chord re-laid and Blenheim road adjusted and new stations in between.
For these services only for ADL's would be needed so 6 units wuld allow for a good maintenance service.


Again, I doubt it. Bringing the service in from Burnham to Christchurch might reduce the number of units required by 1, but that still leaves you needing 9 to operate the full run of services.

Daniel wrote:From there the next step could be either reinstating the Lyttleton service, double-tracking the main north line allowing higher frequencies or a peak commuter express service to Ashburton with SA/AD sets. By this time the 4 ADL's retained by Auckland might become available. And it should take less than 47 minutes for a ADL to travel between Rolleston and central Christchurch.


Not much less I would think. Of course, one is comparing a DMU with a steam hauled carriage train, so there is the possibility of a decent shave off in time; but I doubt it would be down to 25 minutes (which is the maximum trip time you would want to run if you were wanting only 2 DMUs)

eurokiwi78 wrote:A city terminal to rangiora is about 32km. A couple of decent long loops would probably suffice for a basic service, in addition to whats already there. Its track warrant control north of Belfast I believe and with the current volume of freight trains ctc would probably be a good idea.


Taking Auckland as an example again, you had the line out to Waitakere which was single track with the odd passing loop back in the 1990s with a service every half hour during peak, every hour during the off-peak and a few freight trains per day. Granted, Rangiora to Christchurch is a busier section of line, but all that would surely mean are longer loops with the freight trains generally running out of peak.

Duplication would only be necessary if demand suggested an increase in the level of off-peak and/or peak provision of services.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby MacRiada » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:52 am

Would the silver fern railcars be of any help if the one in dunners was stolen by Canterbury?

What about Ashley, Sefton and Amberley?

There is major development happening in Amberley:

Progressive Enterprises general manager property Adrian Walker said the supermarket was of average size for a Countdown, with about 70 staff.

"When you first launch a store it's normally pretty busy, and people come and have a look . . . then normally things probably slow down a bit . . .

"[But] one of the reasons we've gone in there, is that we think over the long term there will be reasonable growth."

The building will be of similar size to a recently opened Rangiora Countdown store.

Harris said the shopping precinct had started with the demolition of half a dozen houses, and another couple moved to other sites. Earthworks, including compaction, had started and the laying of foundations would start in three or four weeks. "Naylor Love have now moved on site to start the main building contract."

The developers were aiming for an Easter completion date, though that was a "tight" deadline.

The proposal was for between 15 and 20 separate shops, as well as a separate 300-square-metre alehouse restaurant and associated courtyard area. There were also plans for a walking access link to the Oakfields residential development.

While Colliers had "only just really got on to the market with it", the centre had attracted five expressions of interest from potential tenants. "One is a bakery-cafe, [there's] a sushi operator, a sandwich operator, we've got a bar, restaurant very close in advanced negotiations . . .," Harris said.

"We've got interest from several other retailers which we haven't finalised yet. We've got a pharmacy interested and a giftshop who's interested."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/busine ... ork-starts
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby pcuser42 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:21 am

MacRiada wrote:Would the silver fern railcars be of any help if the one in dunners was stolen by Canterbury?


Probably not, aren't they stuffed?
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby pete » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:43 am

McRiada wrote
What about Ashley, Sefton and Amberley? There is major development happening in Amberley:


That info re Countdown at Amberley s pretty impressive. Area must really have grown in recent years. Only problem with rail from there is that it would be slow, as the line loops away towards Rangiora before it resumes its southwards direction. And it would be up against the more direct motorway route.
Last edited by pete on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby MacRiada » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:28 am

pcuser42 wrote:
MacRiada wrote:Would the silver fern railcars be of any help if the one in dunners was stolen by Canterbury?


Probably not, aren't they stuffed?


Is that why the Hamilton-Auckland railcar trial failed?

pete wrote:
McRiada wrote
What about Ashley, Sefton and Amberley? There is major development happening in Amberley:


That info re Countdown at Amberley s pretty impressive. Area must really have grown in recent years. Only problem with rail from there is that it would be slow, as the line loops away towards Rangiora before it resumes its southwards direction. And it would be up against the more direct motorway route.


I don't think it is too bad, but I get your point.

Click to view full size

Although the detour to Rangiora might be good thing. There would be many people who would only want to commute as far Rangiora anyway, as there is no public transport in Amberley.

Edit: Should the track from Rolleston to Islington be double or triple tracked?

Heading South,the Main South Line is triple tracked to Hornby, double tracked till just after Islington, where it becomes single tracked all the way till just before Rolleston.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby eurokiwi78 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:59 am

Its not really triple tracked, you have two mains for thru running and non interlocked sidings.

It was double track from islington to rolleston until the 90s I believe. The right of way should be preseerved at least for the future.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby MacRiada » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:51 pm

eurokiwi78 wrote:Its not really triple tracked, you have two mains for thru running and non interlocked sidings.


Could the sidings be turned into a freight bypass of the passenger stations?

Or should I ask, how can we minimise the likelihood that Kiwirail will turn around say that it interfere with their freight trains? AS was done by Kiwirail when they said a Lyttelton - Christchurch service was imposable.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby eurokiwi78 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:45 pm

The lyttelton tunnel is a bottleneck perhaps with the lyttelton trains? Im not sure what the running time is thru the single line, its about 3.5km. As for converting non interlocked sidigs to mainline standard I imagine that would not come cheap.

I measured sh1 to amberly from kaiapoi and its 4km shorter than the rail line. Hardly a big issue if amberly experienced large growth.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby MacRiada » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:17 pm

So where do we go from here?

I am willing to drop my idea and support Daniel's plan.

Should we ask the team at the Auckland Transport Blog to go over the idea? (They sometimes cover non-Auckland stuff right?)

What about the involvement of Generation Zero, 350.org.nz etc? How do we go about getting them on board?
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby eurokiwi78 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:55 pm

An auckland trnsport blog would be interesting. They seem to have the finger on the pulse of these sorts of issues.

Is there general consensus the rail line needs to penetrate the cbd better for any plan to realy work?
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby john-ston » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:47 pm

eurokiwi78 wrote:The lyttelton tunnel is a bottleneck perhaps with the lyttelton trains? Im not sure what the running time is thru the single line, its about 3.5km.


Back when the Ecs ran trains through the Lyttleton Tunnel, it was five minutes for a passenger train and seven minutes for a goods train - so your capacity is between once every ten and once every fifteen minutes each direction, noting that there need to be sufficient slots for freight trains.

MacRiada wrote:What about Ashley, Sefton and Amberley?

There is major development happening in Amberley:


I personally think that would be something for the future - the railway line is a further 20 odd kilometres from Rangiora to Amberley (it is already around 32 kilometres from the old Christchurch Station to Rangiora). The train back in 1959 took 1 hour 41 minutes from Christchurch to Amberley, and even if we were to use Auckland to Pukekohe timing as a proxy, it would still take over an hour - that would increase your DMU requirement from 4 to 6.

MacRiada wrote:Is that why the Hamilton-Auckland railcar trial failed?


No, there were other reasons (not least of which is the fact that trains terminated at the old Auckland Station).

eurokiwi78 wrote:Is there general consensus the rail line needs to penetrate the cbd better for any plan to realy work?


I would say so. Personally, the best solution would be a bypass of the existing line from Papanui through to roughly the old Christchurch Station. With every passing day though, the rebuild gathers pace along Victoria Street, making it harder to get a corridor.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby royce » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:49 pm

john-ston wrote:Back when the Ecs ran trains through the Lyttleton Tunnel, it was five minutes for a passenger train and seven minutes for a goods train - so your capacity is between once every ten and once every fifteen minutes each direction, noting that there need to be sufficient slots for freight trains.

I travelled on the train in the sixties on a number of occasions. Usually on a Saturday but also in the school holidays. I remember there was a bike storage shed at the Moorhouse station. I left my bike in there once, when I came back the shed was locked up. There was a railway staff member who opened it up for me. I can remember the steam locos shunting back and forth to the various sidings. It would be good to have some passenger trains running through to Lyttleton again. But I am not holding my breath.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby MacRiada » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:50 pm

I think there is a consensus, but it still might pay to look at other point of views.

This post suggests using Addington with a "last mile service", while this reply suggests to rather use Lower Riccarton as the "last mile service" would be easier from there.

David Welch offers the Addington idea but also says that Rail Shed B could be used as a city station. This was much like the Architects' institute idea for a station on the other side of bridge (by pac'n'save). Plus another at the same spot..


An interesting read:
Been Benuane wrote:
jhumm wrote:
Been Benuane wrote:What I don’t understand is how with the recent Earthquake they aren’t considering building a heavy rail spur into or adjacent to the CBD!

For example; at the site of the New Bus exchange they could easily build a brand new ~4 platform Terminus with two-track spur and safeguard any future expansions/extensions. And the could also easily get a compulsory acquisition on the Mercedes dealership on Blenheim rd in Addington and demolish it in the interests of re-laying the connection. Then they could utilize the existing rail corridors in the three directions for brand new stations every 800m-1km initially as far as Rolleston, Lyttelton and Belfast.
The SA & SD carriages that will become surplus from the Auckland network once that gets its EMU’s could be used in a push-pull arrangement with Diesel Locos.
Integrate ticketing with the existing bus network, rework the outer bus network as feeders to the new train system and maybe even integrate the CBD tramway you’ve got the nucleus of a decent PT system.
And that could be easily improved and expanded in the future with extensions to Kaiapoi once that gets rebuilt, getting dedicated DMU’s (and possibly electrification and EMU’s), reestablishing the Prebbleton branch and maybe extending out to Lincoln, then maybe looping the rail to the outer western areas and maybe extending the existing tramway to the surviving Eastern and Southern suburbs.

It all seems so obvious to me, and I really don’t understand why the council is persisting with trying to start with expensive train-trams or modern tramways that will offer inferior services and that the government is highly unlikely to allow funding for.
I certainly think it is worth exploring the option of reintroducing commuter rail by way of taking advantage of the surplus rolling stock in Auckland in the interim, but to do all you outline would simply cost billions of dollars. More cost-effective solutions may be desirable to gain better CBD access, and indeed access to other areas (i.e. Prebbleton railhead to Lincoln).

Billions of dollars?! I’m sorry but I don’t know why you think that considering how much they spent for the longer spur to Manukau and the underground station. It was less than the 400 million they’ve quoted for an electrified tramline to the Ilam campus.

Have the terminus at Lichfield street and you’ve actually got something attractive to possible rail commuters that can easily be integrated with bus routes and future tram routes.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby MacRiada » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:15 pm

john-ston wrote:
MacRiada wrote:What about Ashley, Sefton and Amberley?

There is major development happening in Amberley:


I personally think that would be something for the future - the railway line is a further 20 odd kilometres from Rangiora to Amberley (it is already around 32 kilometres from the old Christchurch Station to Rangiora). The train back in 1959 took 1 hour 41 minutes from Christchurch to Amberley, and even if we were to use Auckland to Pukekohe timing as a proxy, it would still take over an hour - that would increase your DMU requirement from 4 to 6.


Agreed, it would be of low priority.

Something like this maybe:

Phase 1 Rolleston
Phase 2 Rangiora
Phase 3 Lyttelton
Phase 4 Ashburton
Phase 5 Amberley
Phase 6 Darfeld
Phase 7 Methven

Ok, I'm only joking about the last one :lol:

john-ston wrote:
eurokiwi78 wrote:Is there general consensus the rail line needs to penetrate the cbd better for any plan to realy work?


I would say so. Personally, the best solution would be a bypass of the existing line from Papanui through to roughly the old Christchurch Station. With every passing day though, the rebuild gathers pace along Victoria Street, making it harder to get a corridor.


Is that similar to this idea?
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby eurokiwi78 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:05 pm

Here is my proposal for the land that should be set aside, as a cycleway or linear park for a future CRL,

A basic pic of a triangle junction to the north of the existing Addington Station

Image

The CRL itself which Id link back up somethere by the old station.

Image

Cut n cover, Tunnel or Surface, secure a corridor now.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby john-ston » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:54 pm

MacRiada wrote:Agreed, it would be of low priority.

Something like this maybe:

Phase 1 Rolleston
Phase 2 Rangiora
Phase 3 Lyttelton
Phase 4 Ashburton
Phase 5 Amberley
Phase 6 Darfeld
Phase 7 Methven

Ok, I'm only joking about the last one :lol:


My personal order would be

Phase 1: Lyttleton, Rangiora, Burnham
Phase 2: Lincoln, Springfield, Waipara
Phase 3: Ashburton

With that, you would have restored the network of local and suburban services that existed around Christchurch in the mid 1950s.

MacRiada wrote:Is that similar to this idea?


It might be - my thinking was beside Papanui Road/Victoria Street and then down through the CBD (didn't have an exact route, although I was inclined to suggest beside Durham Street.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby eurokiwi78 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:32 pm

Something like this?

Image
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby Daniel » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:02 pm

Actually Lichfield Street/Colombo Street (the site of the bus interchange?) would be an ideal location.
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby pete » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:31 am

Rolleston is realistically the southern limit. Not much commuter traffic from.burnham and even less from Ashburton i would have thought. Also large former yard area and a platform and shelter still exist at Rolleston, nothing exists at Burnham.

the northern terminus should be Rangioa I would have thought, for similar reasons. And it needs to be remembered that the ex Auvkland SA's are limited to short journeys, due to having no toilets on board.

As for central terminus, any commuter line must serve the growing commercial hub if Addington, which be missed with any deviation from Riccarton or Papanui towards the CBD. Although, I still don't see the CBD being a big destination ever again. And the new stadium will be reasonably close to the now empty site of the old central.station, and of course there will be new tram tracks going from the cbd towards the polytech. Surely be better to extend these to the stadium, the bus station and a rail interchange rather than extend a rail branch into the Cbd. (not with heritage trams of course).
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Re: Would a commuter railcar service work in chch?

Postby pete » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:48 am

Royce, your reminiscences of the old station bring back.memories. At the.moment, the toilets and bike sheds are exposed, being below ground level and the station itself long demolished. They are all that are left. That station was my first workplace and it breaks my heart every to.e I pass ! Good times, good employer.
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