Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby geoff_184 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:13 pm

eurokiwi78 wrote:Rotorua it seems they dont give a damn or find it more of a hinderance. Why is there such a difference in attitude.


The thing is, there was never any announcement of closure of the Rotorua Branch, so the public never really noticed. They just stopped running the railcar and that was that. Nobody even noticed they had already stopped running freights some time before the line closed. No public awareness, no media interest, so a different attitude.

Even when the freight train was still running, it wasn't really carrying Rotorua tonnage. It was all Gisborne and Hawke's Bay freight. In other words, even when it was open, it was of little relevance to Rotorua businesses. The Gisborne line on the other hand carries Gisborne tonnage, affecting Gisborne businesses.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby Rolls-Royce » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:55 pm

A new rail line needs to be built into the Rotorua and Taupo regions to serve the businesses and industries in this region. The existing Rotorua Branch line over the Mamaku ranges is steep and doesn't have any 'anchor' customers along it, nor does it have any easy option of being extended to serve potential major customers further south.

The best option would be for an extension of the Kinleith Branch east across to Waipa mill at Rotorua following a similar route to SH30, then south to Taupo following a similar route to SH5 and Broadlands Road via Reporoa (Fonterra), terminating at the Taupo mill on Centennial Drive. There would be minimal difficult terrain along this route with the line skirting around the southern end of the Mamaku ranges and it is mostly flat and easy terrain along the rest of the route to Taupo.

With this route a line would link the Taupo, Waipa and Kinleith mills with the Port of Tauranga, as well as running right into the centre of the central North Island plantation forests for carrying logs out. This route also has the potential for carrying general container freight and a tourist passenger train between Auckland-Hamilton-Rotorua-Taupo and could serve the Fonterra dairy factory at Reporoa. Freight between Auckland/Hamilton and Hawkes Bay could also be carried on this line and be transferred onto trucks at Taupo.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby geoff_184 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:11 am

Rolls-Royce wrote:With this route a line would link the Taupo, Waipa and Kinleith mills with the Port of Tauranga


Except the Taupo and Waipa mills would only get you a train a day, which falls well short of justifying the cost of construction.

Freight between Auckland/Hamilton and Hawkes Bay could also be carried on this line and be transferred onto trucks at Taupo.


Would the economics stack up? The transhipping costs/time, and the dog leg of Kinleith-Rotorua-Taupo (double the direct distance) seems very cumbersome to me. If the freight is already on a truck to Taupo, it may as well keep going to Auckland instead of going in a different direction to get to a transshipping point, to then start a slow train to Auckland. You would struggle to provide an overnight service, whereas the trucks would do it easily.

I really don't think tonnage levels would justify building a multi billion dollar line in this day and age. The ship has sailed on building new inter-regional railways in this country.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby Rolls-Royce » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:48 am

geoff_184 wrote:Except the Taupo and Waipa mills would only get you a train a day, which falls well short of justifying the cost of construction.


This is not the only traffic that the line would carry, it would carry log trains as well. There would also be traffic from the Fonterra dairy factory at Reporoa.

geoff_184 wrote:Would the economics stack up? The transhipping costs/time, and the dog leg of Kinleith-Rotorua-Taupo (double the direct distance) seems very cumbersome to me. If the freight is already on a truck to Taupo, it may as well keep going to Auckland instead of going in a different direction to get to a transshipping point, to then start a slow train to Auckland. You would struggle to provide an overnight service, whereas the trucks would do it easily.

I really don't think tonnage levels would justify building a multi billion dollar line in this day and age. The ship has sailed on building new inter-regional railways in this country.


The route of the line is longer than a direct line between Kinleith and Taupo because it is following a route that serves Rotorua and other industries between Rotorua and Taupo that a direct line from Kinleith to Taupo would not serve. A direct route south from Kinleith would encounter difficult terrain and would requite two bridges over the Waikato River. The route via Waipa and Reporoa involves much easier terrain and would be much more suitable for heavy log trains, which the current Rotorua Branch is not suitable for.

Freight between Auckland and Hawkes Bay could quite easily be transported overnight by rail with truck transfer at Taupo, there is more than sufficient time. A freight train would probably take around five to five and a half hours to get from Auckland to Taupo, then two hours between Taupo and Napier.

Operating one line over a longer (and less steep) route is more efficient and cost effective than operating seperate branch lines - obviously not viable with the current Rotorua Branch.

It is also about economies of scale, one freight train can carry considerably more freight more efficiently than multiple trucks, even if it does take longer - which is not an issue for an overnight service.

Then there is all the other factors with a freight train verses multiple large heavy trucks on the roads - fuel usage as oil prices increase, road wear and tear, road crashes involving trucks; the noise, vibration and fumes inflicted on communities with large numbers of trucks passing through them, not to mention pedestrian safety (eg school children attempting to cross busy roads with large numbers of trucks travelling along them).

Having Rotorua and Taupo linked along one line would also enable a high quality Tranz Scenic service to be established between Auckland Hamilton Rotorua Taupo, linking these major popular tourist centres with the main entry point for tourists in Auckland. Yes, the train may be slower than a coach along this route, but it is not a race between coach and train between point A and B, it is about the journey and a quality experience - and this is what many wealthy tourists want and are willing to pay for, and consequently this is what Tranz Scenic train journeys are about now - a high quality train experience. Rotorua and Taupo are popular destinations and there is a market there for tourists who are willing to pay a premium fare to get to places like Rotorua and Taupo in comfort eg new AK Premier carriages. The line just needs to be built to these centres.

Both Rotorua and Taupo are large growing forestry and tourism centres, a line from Kinleith linking them both would be viable and would be well used in this day in age. Forestry traffic is ideal for rail, general freight and passenger traffic would complement it in these regions. The line would pay for itself in time with the traffic it would carry, and the investment that the Government would have made in funding the line, will return to them in the form of dividends from KiwiRail in the years to come.
Last edited by Rolls-Royce on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby Rail-it » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:08 am

geoff_184 wrote:
Rolls-Royce wrote:
Freight between Auckland/Hamilton and Hawkes Bay could also be carried on this line and be transferred onto trucks at Taupo.


Would the economics stack up? The transhipping costs/time, and the dog leg of Kinleith-Rotorua-Taupo (double the direct distance) seems very cumbersome to me. If the freight is already on a truck to Taupo, it may as well keep going to Auckland instead of going in a different direction to get to a transshipping point, to then start a slow train to Auckland. You would struggle to provide an overnight service, whereas the trucks would do it easily.

I really don't think tonnage levels would justify building a multi billion dollar line in this day and age. The ship has sailed on building new inter-regional railways in this country.

A better option for getting freight to the Hawkes Bay from the railhead would be to upgrade the gentle annie route from Taihape, and have a transfer there than building a new railway...

That's if, like Geoff says, it just doesn't stay on the truck.... Then again, heavy goods, would just go the long way around... via palmerston north.

A railway back into Rotorua may be more realistic, for both freight and passenger.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby royce » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:47 pm

geoff_184 wrote:The thing is, there was never any announcement of closure of the Rotorua Branch, so the public never really noticed. They just stopped running the railcar and that was that. Nobody even noticed they had already stopped running freights some time before the line closed. No public awareness, no media interest, so a different attitude.

Even when the freight train was still running, it wasn't really carrying Rotorua tonnage. It was all Gisborne and Hawke's Bay freight. In other words, even when it was open, it was of little relevance to Rotorua businesses. The Gisborne line on the other hand carries Gisborne tonnage, affecting Gisborne businesses.

In the early 1990's Dailyfreight and NZR both had depots set up in the Kopu yard to recieve LWL freight from Auckland. In order to provide an economic train into Roturua it was decided to introduce the Bay Raider to Rotorua which also carried LWL freight to Gisborne and Napier which was transfered to road at Rotorua. Watties freight from both Gisborne and Hastings was backloaded to Auckland. If you remenber they intially used the road railers. This allowed both Taneatua and Tokoroa to be closed for LCL freight or maybe it had already happened by then and Rotorua became the distribution point for all LWL freight in the BOP and South Waikato and also the road bridging point to Gisborne and Hasting. However it didnt really work which is why Kiwiril doesnt handle any of this sort of traffic these days to these regions. Maybe a better Idea would have been to move the operation in the eastern bay to Kawerau which would have avioded having to run the Taneatua shunt and shifting Tokoroa's freight to Kinlieth. However this would have left Roturua high and dry. Anyway Rotorua is now history along with Taneatua and Tokoroa. So I would suggest that if ever Kiwirail and its customers wanted to get back into handling LWL freight or even full containers to Roturua, Whakatane, Gisborne or Napier and Hastings that Kinlieth and Kawerau would be the place to do it from. However if forestry traffic could be sourced in the Taupo area then the logical thing to do would be to extend the Murapara branch towards Taupo or Napier. This would provide a closer transfer point for freight to the Hawkes bay but it wouldnt be of any advantage for Gisborne unless a connection was made through to Eskdale. Anyway dream on who knows what could happen. Maybe another oil crises brought on by a middle eastern war.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby geoff_184 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Rolls-Royce wrote:This is not the only traffic that the line would carry, it would carry log trains as well. There would also be traffic from the Fonterra dairy factory at Reporoa.


The log runs are spaced out throughout the forested area though, running via private roads direct to Kinleith or Kawerau. There's really no need to cart them to a central loading point when they could just take them straight to the mills. But even the traffics you mention, including Reporoa, are not even going to come close to paying for the billions required to build the line. The economics of building new freight railways just don't stack up anymore. Look at the ECMT, with 40+ trains a day they still can't afford to double track it.

Rolls-Royce wrote:A freight train would probably take around five to five and a half hours to get from Auckland to Taupo, then two hours between Taupo and Napier.


Plus you need to factor in the transshipping time. But the point is, the freight currently moves by truck with no hassle. So how is it better to spend billions building a lengthy dog-legged rail route, with a need to trans-ship? That's a huge effort to merely end up with something slower and more cumbersome than the existing system, and all to carry low volumes of tonnage. You would need a good hundred trains a day to make it pay.

I agree that had such a line been built 70 years ago it would probably be viable today, just as most existing lines are viable. But building it (or any of the existing railways like the NIMT or ECMT) today would not be viable. Put another way - we can make old lines pay, but we can't do the same with new ones.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby dave the rave » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:05 pm

yes the demise of the Rotorua branch is an interesting one. Unlike other branch lines there seemed to be no official closing, but rather a slow and gradual deterioration or services down to nothing - without much public outcry. First there was the closing of the railway station and down grading of operations to the outskirts of town (1980's I think). Then freight trains at some stage were reduced to 1 a day (does anyone know when?), followed by the stopping of all freight services. The passenger train seemed to linger on for a while I think but probably was doomed and cancelled. Tracks were left to over grow and that was basically it. Even today people still claim that Nelson is the only city without a rail link - but of course this is not the case - Rotorua has been in this rank for some time. And possibly now joined by Gisborne. Does any one know exactly when the freight trains to Rotorua were cancelled and why? what was the pattern of operation in the latter years? were the running times too slow or inconvenient for freight companies and exporters perhaps? Did Rotorua industries not support their rail or are there no industries in the area?
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby Rail-it » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:05 pm

It was the beginning part of the TranzRail pt 2 era....
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby eurokiwi78 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:57 pm

ISTR it was around 2000 (The train numbers were 410 and 411). Beard decided trains shouldnt shunt anymore and they built the CT site in Hamilton.

Those roadrail wagons spent there last few years conveying processed timber traffic but there was a few incidents (including the road tyres lowering themselves whilst leaving New Plymouth which resulted in several points levers being damaged) and they stopped using them after that.

My assumption is the cost of line maintenance was to much for the geyserland exp to bear alone as no other trains were using the line so it became uneconomic and left no trains using the line.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby royce » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:06 pm

eurokiwi78 wrote:Those roadrail wagons spent there last few years conveying processed timber traffic but there was a few incidents (including the road tyres lowering themselves whilst leaving New Plymouth which resulted in several points levers being damaged) and they stopped using them after that.

Do you know how the suspension for the trailers was operated I am thinking it was air operated. Maybe a double sided bellows or ram which lifted the wheel up in rail mode and the lowered it when they ran on the road. I know they were too heavy to be truly economic. I have seen road railer trailer when I have been travelling in europe so other countries are using them. Still they ran for probably 10 years so they cant have been that bad. Someone on another forum expressed the opinion that operating them on the steeply graded Roturua line contributed to their failure. Something to do with stress cracking on the welding. But they looked quite good especially when you got five or six of them together on a train with a shared bogie between each unit. They didnt look so good on the road though because they wern't level. The front under the semitrailer was quite a bit higher than the back. It just looked strange to my eyes.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby eurokiwi78 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:17 am

royce wrote:Do you know how the suspension for the trailers was operated I am thinking it was air operated. Maybe a double sided bellows or ram which lifted the wheel up in rail mode and the lowered it when they ran on the road. I know they were too heavy to be truly economic.


They would have gotten there air off the trains brake pipe (550kpa). I only saw them used in rail mode. With swinglifting trucks as common as they are nowadays curtainside intermodal containers would be equally effective. I wonder what happened to them in the end.

They have had some creativity in the past with wagons for various types of freight. Some years ago I saw 2 modified UK wagons with swinging arms to carry Rubbish Bin skips. It never progressed which is a shame as rubbish could potentially be a big user of rail.

I also remember there was a possibility of carting bitumen to Rotorua but CEO Beard stopped bitumen from becoming a major user of rail.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby geoff_184 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:09 pm

Used to see those rubbish skips on the NAL freights, going to/from Helensville. Wasn't very efficient though, they were moving between Thames and Silverdale, by truck from Thames to Morrinsville, then rail from Morrinsville to Helensville, then truck again from Helensville to Silverdale (well the Redvale landfill). Not hard to see why they went back to trucking direct from Thames to Silverdale.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby royce » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:14 pm

eurokiwi78 wrote:They would have gotten there air off the trains brake pipe (550kpa). I only saw them used in rail mode. With swinglifting trucks as common as they are nowadays curtainside intermodal containers would be equally effective. I wonder what happened to them in the end.

I think their extra weight relative to a normal semi trailer was about equal to the weight of a container so there is probably no advantage except they didnt need a forklift to change mode. Apparently it was quite quick about five minutes. I would like to see Kiwirail have another go at them in the future. Has anyone seen any of the new red curtainside containers off the wagons on a truck. I havnt maybe they are not meant to be lifted.
eurokiwi78 wrote:I also remember there was a possibility of carting bitumen to Rotorua but CEO Beard stopped bitumen from becoming a major user of rail.

I think the real reason bitumin was carried by Tranzrail in those days was because the wagons were very convenient mobile storage tanks. Even if they were old wagons which had had the deck and Tank cutoff and were mounted on a container flat wagon. Pretty innovative I thought. If you think about the LPG wagons running between Taranaki and Otahuhu they are pretty much the same. The wagon wait around at Otahuhu until Nova gets around to unloading them. Can you imagine a road tanker being used in the same manner.
eurokiwi78 wrote:They have had some creativity in the past with wagons for various types of freight. Some years ago I saw 2 modified UK wagons with swinging arms to carry Rubbish Bin skips. It never progressed which is a shame as rubbish could potentially be a big user of rail.


geoff_184 wrote:Used to see those rubbish skips on the NAL freights, going to/from Helensville. Wasn't very efficient though, they were moving between Thames and Silverdale, by truck from Thames to Morrinsville, then rail from Morrinsville to Helensville, then truck again from Helensville to Silverdale (well the Redvale landfill). Not hard to see why they went back to trucking direct from Thames to Silverdale.

Werent they like a base which the containers sat on which was mounted on the deck. The base could swivel around on a turntable which allowed the winch on the truck to drag the containers off the wagon. Not to sure how they loaded them maybe the hoist on the truck pushed them down so far and then reversed back. Again the idea was it could all be done by the driver of the truck. But of course a swinglift truck could do the same but the rubbish vehicles were truck and trailer with a container on each where as a container lifting vehicle could only carry one a a time and wouldnt be able to tip it.
I am still working on my design of a swinglift truck which can pickup a twenty or maybe twenty four foot container carrying bulk freight like fertiliser or grain off a wagon and then drive it to its destination and tip the contents into a bin.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby eurokiwi78 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:30 am

They may already have some fertilizer containers that can be dumped from a truck, There was a rumour floating around about containers of hatuma lime being transhipped to Kopuataroa from the Palmerston North CT site (the sidings was removed sometime ago).

They could be a useful way to service quite a few places (like Taratahi as that sidings was removed circa 5 years ago).
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby royce » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:25 am

eurokiwi78 wrote:They may already have some fertilizer containers that can be dumped from a truck, There was a rumour floating around about containers of hatuma lime being transhipped to Kopuataroa from the Palmerston North CT site (the sidings was removed sometime ago).

They could be a useful way to service quite a few places (like Taratahi as that sidings was removed circa 5 years ago).

I think the Hatuma lime ones are designed to be dumped from a truck I dont see how else would they could be emptied.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby eurokiwi78 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:03 pm

They might also be an option for places like Mauriceville, road bridge from masterton rather than rehabilitating long dis used sidings for a small amount of tonnage.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby royce » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:01 am

eurokiwi78 wrote:They might also be an option for places like Mauriceville, road bridge from masterton rather than rehabilitating long dis used sidings for a small amount of tonnage

Interestingly the Rotorua branch had a fertiliser store at Kopu I think it is still there. I never saw any fertilser being delivered on rail there though. I cant rember if there was a siding or not but it was right next to the line. Of course if it did have a siding they would have used LA wagons and the fertilser would have been unloaded with a digger. So not surprising it ended up on road.
Road bridging from container terminals is great except there isnt enough of them. So a few more sidings around the network are needed. Then an economic way to transfer containers from rail to road and vice versa needs to be put in place. Remember the gantry and the tractor pulled trailers for containers at Taneatua. I am not saying we should go back to that though. Obviously container lifter trucks are the way to go where there is not enough freight to justify a large forklift.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby eurokiwi78 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:21 pm

royce wrote:Remember the gantry and the tractor pulled trailers for containers at Taneatua. I am not saying we should go back to that though.


The health and safety changes from the late 90s onwards (following a number of shunting fatalities) killed a substantial number of private sidings. Its quite expensive for a firm to train there staff in 'core stationary shunting' now. Plus the requirement to shunt with the air on which obviously requires an airsupply to the brake pipe. Those wagons that were pushed about by a tractor have the wagon brakes 'bled off' but thats a bit of a no-no now.
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Re: Rotorua Branch Railway Leased to RNRT

Postby geoff_184 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:00 pm

eurokiwi78 wrote:Those wagons that were pushed about by a tractor have the wagon brakes 'bled off' but thats a bit of a no-no now.


Daily Freight in Penrose recently reintroduced a shunting tractor in their sidings, and I think the Otahuhu steel mill still uses theirs. Hatuma Lime does too.
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