Hamilton Central Station (underground) CBD

[Daniel]

Yes, and no. Tainui's the type of tribe who love business. They own major parts of Hamilton, including the old Warehouse site, the Centreplace Mall, the central Wintec campus, and The Base. That's in Hamilton alone. Then there's Huntly Power Station, University of Waikato, even a few properties in Pukekohe! I'm sure if they saw the merit (in terms of $$$) of a transport oriented development, they'd be all over it!

I'll have to take your word for it on that.

I don't know if it's remotely possible, but you could possibly widen the tunnel and install a loop, which would allow freight in/out without having to wait for pax services.

Diesel trains are always going to be a problem with tunnels and having freight trains passing through the station will make it undesirable for passengers. As far as I'm aware it's only single track.

But initially passenger services won't be too frequent and so it might not be a problem. But if it did become more popular/frequently used then yes some major works would be required. Considering Morrinsville is actually about as North as Ngaruawahia would it be possible to build a new rail connection between Morrinsville and Taupiri?

[Tubetrain29]

IF there ever is any money to spend on rail in Hamilton, then Hamilton Central Station would best be used as a regular through station. Frankton would remain as an important interchange station, and a station in the eastern suburbs would be built as a terminus for trains not travelling on to Tauranga, Rotorua (and maybe Tokoroa). The Central station doesn't NEED to have multiple tracks if trains only stop there for less than a minute, then carry on. What the station would need is good connections to buses (either by a passage that heads down under the line, then up into the present bus station, or by building a new bus station on or near the Centreplace site). Park and Ride Station(s) north of Frankton (for example at The Base) would be good, too.

Fumes and Safety would not be easy to address. Platform Edge Doors can't be used because trains will not all have doors in the same places. And safety measures would be expensive.

So, the idea of re-opening the station sounds good, but I can't see it happening in the near future. So IMO, the best chance of Hamilton CBD getting a station, will be a station just across the river.

[john-ston]

Tubetrain, the thing to remember is that there are a large number of advantages in having a Central Hamilton Station - it is near a place where people might want to go (i.e. the CBD of Hamilton), and if you are having trains coming from Auckland (or Tauranga, or Rotorua), then you are going to need to have trains stopping for longer than a minute so that you can unload luggage and the like (don't forget, you could have people heading from Auckland [or Tauranga or Rotorua] to Hamilton that might be staying for a few days).

Fumes and Safety would not be easy to address. Platform Edge Doors can't be used because trains will not all have doors in the same places. And safety measures would be expensive.

All the more reason to look at a new underground station with a suitable development on top.

So, the idea of re-opening the station sounds good, but I can't see it happening in the near future. So IMO, the best chance of Hamilton CBD getting a station, will be a station just across the river.

The station across the river will not be convenient for the average Hamiltonian and I don't see them taking a train just to be forced to walk across the Claudelands Road bridge. If it was hard enough to convince Aucklanders to take the train when the trains terminate one kilometre away from the heart of the CBD, try to convince Hamiltonians - and remember that peak hour is more of a ten minute long thing in Hamilton.

[geoff_184]

The station across the river will not be convenient for the average Hamiltonian and I don't see them taking a train just to be forced to walk across the Claudelands Road bridge. If it was hard enough to convince Aucklanders to take the train when the trains terminate one kilometre away from the heart of the CBD, try to convince Hamiltonians

260 metres from the station to the main street is not an inconvenient walk, and is why the commuter car park at the east end of the bridge is so popular (which is where a station could be built). Nobody there seems to have an issue with walking across the bridge - why would they, it's just a footpath like anywhere else. The bridge is full of pedestrian commuters every day.

The walk from the underground station to the main street is also 260 metres, so no difference really.

[john-ston]

260 metres from the station to the main street is not an inconvenient walk, and is why the commuter car park at the east end of the bridge is so popular (which is where a station could be built).

That is another 260 metres on top of however long the walk would be. I am guessing that the commuter car park is only popular because it is cheaper than other car parking options in the Hamilton CBD.

Similar with a station. Sure, there would be people that would use a station next to the Claudelands Bridge, but more people would use a properly located Hamilton Central Station - and then you have the added bonus of being right next door to the Hamilton Bus Interchange, which would allow people to interchange between suburban buses and longer distance train services.

Nobody there seems to have an issue with walking across the bridge - why would they, it's just a footpath like anywhere else. The bridge is full of pedestrian commuters every day.

If you are paying less for a parking spot because of the inconvenience of walking across the bridge, then you would not mind. It would be a different story with a public transport service.

The walk from the underground station to the main street is also 260 metres, so no difference really.

I would propose a proper reconstruction of the Hamilton Central Station, including the ability to easily access Victoria Street. This would mean there would need to be a complete redevelopment of a good portion of the two blocks above the Hamilton tunnel.

Just out of curiousity, you wouldn't happen to know where the old Claudelands Station was?

[geoff_184]

That is another 260 metres on top of however long the walk would be.

What's additional about it? We can only propose an arbitrary point as the destination, so to play it safe I'm going with half way along the main street in the CBD. That's only 260m from the bridge station site. You almost can't get any closer.

...but more people would use a properly located Hamilton Central Station

I think 260m from the central point of the main street of the CBD is pretty darn central already. It's shorter than the length of Britomart station!

If you are paying less for a parking spot because of the inconvenience of walking across the bridge, then you would not mind

A footpath is a footpath. Whether it has dirt or water under it is irrelevant. What exactly is inconvenient about it? Do people refuse to exit Newmarket station across the bridge to Remuera Rd because it's inconvenient? Or how about Grafton bridge? I see loads of people walking across that. I really can't think of any reason why somebody would object to using a bridge.

I would propose a proper reconstruction of the Hamilton Central Station, including the ability to easily access Victoria Street. This would mean there would need to be a complete redevelopment of a good portion of the two blocks above the Hamilton tunnel.

Obviously that isn't going to happen, and any rail service for Hamilton will have to be done realistically. Adding a platform beside the existing commuter car park which also happens to be very close to the middle of town is sensible, affordable and quite straight forward.

Just out of curiousity, you wouldn't happen to know where the old Claudelands Station was?

About 600m further on from the commuter car park, east of Heaphy Tce.

[john-ston]

What's additional about it? We can only propose an arbitrary point as the destination, so to play it safe I'm going with half way along the main street in the CBD. That's only 260m from the bridge station site. You almost can't get any closer.

Depends on where your half way point is. As I understand your earlier statement, it is 260m from the bridge station site through to Victoria Street. Then, you still need to walk along Victoria Street (or whichever series of streets) to get to your ultimate destination.

I think 260m from the central point of the main street of the CBD is pretty darn central already. It's shorter than the length of Britomart station!

260m from the central point of the main street (wherever this arbitary mark is; I am assuming the corner of Victoria and Claudelands) is still greater than 0m.

A footpath is a footpath. Whether it has dirt or water under it is irrelevant. What exactly is inconvenient about it? Do people refuse to exit Newmarket station across the bridge to Remuera Rd because it's inconvenient? Or how about Grafton bridge? I see loads of people walking across that. I really can't think of any reason why somebody would object to using a bridge.

It isn't the fact that you are crossing the bridge - it is the distance from your ultimate destination. If you park right next to your ultimate destination, then you are at the most convenient spot. If you park 260m away from your ultimate destination, then it is less convenient and there must be some form of trade off. Lengthen the distance, and your trade off gets larger.

In the public transport sphere, you are already making a trade off to take the public transport vehicle. There is a good chance that the public transport option is going to be slower, and the cost of the public transport option vs driving is probably going to be fairly similar (especially in a place such as Hamilton). Add a hike to the mix, and you are going to start making the public transport option less attractive.

Obviously that isn't going to happen, and any rail service for Hamilton will have to be done realistically. Adding a platform beside the existing commuter car park which also happens to be very close to the middle of town is sensible, affordable and quite straight forward.

Geoff, your proposal is much like having Beach Road as the main Auckland Station. We all know what happened there. My suggestion would allow for a conveniently located Hamilton Central Station, as well as a decent development on top of the site - perhaps a few seven or eight story office buildings; or an apartment block or two.

The other problem with your proposal is that it doesn't leave much room for future expansion. A single platform is fine when you have one or two services per hour; but in a scenario where you end up with regular services to Auckland, Tauranga and Rotorua, as well as semi-suburban runs to say Morrinsville, Cambridge, Huntly and Te Awamutu, then a single platform would not be enough - especially if your regular services to Auckland, Tauranga and Rotorua are needing to stop for a few minutes at a time to allow passengers to take their luggage off.

As it is, Hamilton has over 200,000 people. Do we really want to constrain ourselves and not allow for future population growth?

[geoff_184]

Depends on where your half way point is. As I understand your earlier statement, it is 260m from the bridge station site through to Victoria Street. Then, you still need to walk along Victoria Street (or whichever series of streets) to get to your ultimate destination.

That would be the case no matter where the railway station is. The underground station or the bridge station are both an equal distance from the middle of the main street, so both are well placed. But one is much easier to establish than the other.

260m from the central point of the main street (wherever this arbitary mark is; I am assuming the corner of Victoria and Claudelands) is still greater than 0m.

Ok, so Britomart is a failure that nobody uses because it isn't 0m from the middle of Auckland's main street? Seriously, 260m from the middle of Hamilton's main street would probably be the most convenient city railway station in New Zealand. More so than Britomart or Wellington.

It isn't the fact that you are crossing the bridge - it is the distance from your ultimate destination. If you park right next to your ultimate destination, then you are at the most convenient spot. If you park 260m away from your ultimate destination, then it is less convenient and there must be some form of trade off.

I would say most city commuters in most cities have more than 260m to walk, from stations or car parks, to place of work.

I think you're perceiving an issue where there isn't one. You are basically saying that a station almost in the exact centre of the main street (only 260m away), and therefore the most conveniently placed railway station in any New Zealand city, will be a failure because the very short distance is somehow a problem. It's not making any sense to me

Geoff, your proposal is much like having Beach Road as the main Auckland Station.

No, my proposal would be comparable to Britomart users having to use the east end access.

[john-ston]

That would be the case no matter where the railway station is. The underground station or the bridge station are both an equal distance from the middle of the main street, so both are well placed. But one is much easier to establish than the other.

The underground station would be right by Victoria Street. Your proposed station would be 260 metres away.

Ok, so Britomart is a failure that nobody uses because it isn't 0m from the middle of Auckland's main street? Seriously, 260m from the middle of Hamilton's main street would probably be the most convenient city railway station in New Zealand. More so than Britomart or Wellington.

Geoff, Auckland's main station is right on Auckland's main street and Wellington's main station is also right on Wellington's main street. Bear in mind also that Hamilton is a much smaller centre, so if you want a public transport option to be taken up, it needs to be that little bit more competitive.

I would say most city commuters in most cities have more than 260m to walk, from stations or car parks, to place of work.

Yes, but then we are talking about cities with quite a few more people than Hamilton has. The comparable for Auckland would be someone parking on the CBD Fringe and walking to work.

I think you're perceiving an issue where there isn't one. You are basically saying that a station almost in the exact centre of the main street (only 260m away), and therefore the most conveniently placed railway station in any New Zealand city, will be a failure because the very short distance is somehow a problem. It's not making any sense to me

The issue is that you are adding an extra 260m to the trip in a city where public transport is already at a disadvantage. If someone can park for a very low price right next door to their place of work, then it is going to be very hard to entice them to public transport - and if, by the way, the rail option requires a one k hike, then it is going to be that much harder. If you are going to prepare Hamilton for a future rail based public transport system (and I am not saying that there is a need for semi-suburban rail services to Hamilton right now), then you might as well do it right the first time.

The other issue is that you are thinking from a one track/one platform mindset. I am thinking of something a little larger - a station which has at least two platforms, and as many as four - enough to suit a city of perhaps half a million with semi-suburban runs to Huntly, Te Awamutu, Cambridge and Morrinsville, as well as longer distance runs to Auckland, Tauranga and Rotorua. Maybe you think I am a tad ambitious, but remember that it only took Auckland forty years to get from the size of Hamilton to half a million people.

[geoff_184]

The underground station would be right by Victoria Street. Your proposed station would be 260 metres away.

We are talking about a realistic way to add a platform to the city, not demolishing the biggest buildings in Hamilton CBD to build some grand central station.

Geoff, Auckland's main station is right on Auckland's main street and Wellington's main station is also right on Wellington's main street.

Wellington's station is a kilometre walk to the middle of town, not 260m. Same with Auckland.

The comparable for Auckland would be someone parking on the CBD Fringe and walking to work.

No, we are talking 260 metres. 260 metres is the same distance in all cities. People don't have shorter legs and smaller feet just because their city is smaller

The issue is that you are adding an extra 260m to the trip in a city where public transport is already at a disadvantage.

It's not adding anything. People already walk that 260m from the commuter car park to the CBD. And even greater distances from other car parks around the CBD area. Given that the trains will be coming from outlying towns like Huntly, Morrinsville and Te Awamutu, dropping them off 260m from the middle of town is very convenient. THat's closer to the middle of town than Britomart or Bunny St achieve for their cities, where the stations are a kilometre from the middle of town.

The other issue is that you are thinking from a one track/one platform mindset. I am thinking of something a little larger - a station which has at least two platforms, and as many as four - enough to suit a city of perhaps half a million with semi-suburban runs to Huntly, Te Awamutu, Cambridge and Morrinsville, as well as longer distance runs to Auckland, Tauranga and Rotorua. Maybe you think I am a tad ambitious, but remember that it only took Auckland forty years to get from the size of Hamilton to half a million people.

We are talking about whether or not it's easier to reopen the underground station, or site a new one in the open. One of those options will need to be pursued first in order to establish a basic system that can grow to the stage where a bigger proposal could be pursued. We all know Hamilton isn't going to go from nothing to a half billion dollar station project (which is what it would cost to pull down and rebuild two blocks worth of Hamilton's largest buildings). Personally I don't see that ever happening. Not even Auckland would attempt to tear down two blocks of buildings in its CBD for a PT project.

[john-ston]

We are talking about a realistic way to add a platform to the city, not demolishing the biggest buildings in Hamilton CBD to build some grand central station.

The biggest building that might need to be demolished would be a four story office block - nothing too particularly expensive.

Wellington's station is a kilometre walk to the middle of town, not 260m. Same with Auckland.

Geoff, Auckland's main station is right on Queen Street - most major workplaces in the Auckland CBD are less than a kilometre away (heck, there are plenty that are within 260 metres). Similar with Wellington Station - most of the workplaces in Wellington, if I am not mistaken, are along Lambton Quay - Wellington Station to the very end of Lambton Quay isn't even a kilometre (and again, I am pretty sure that there are plenty of workplaces within 260 metres of Wellington Station, granted not quite as many as in Auckland).

No, we are talking 260 metres. 260 metres is the same distance in all cities. People don't have shorter legs and smaller feet just because their city is smaller

Geoff, in the Hamilton CBD, parking is cheap, so parking 260 metres away from the corner of Victoria and Claudelands (you could still be a further 500 metres away from your place of work) is more of a deal than in the Auckland CBD where you need to take a second mortgage to pay for parking (or take the bus/train/ferry).

In short, it is about relative distance. Because parking is so expensive in the Auckland CBD, people are more willing to go further out to get cheap parking than in the Hamilton CBD where parking is cheap.

It's not adding anything. People already walk that 260m from the commuter car park to the CBD. And even greater distances from other car parks around the CBD area. Given that the trains will be coming from outlying towns like Huntly, Morrinsville and Te Awamutu, dropping them off 260m from the middle of town is very convenient. THat's closer to the middle of town than Britomart or Bunny St achieve for their cities, where the stations are a kilometre from the middle of town.

To address your last sentence first, the main train stations in Auckland and Wellington are not a kilometre from the middle of town. The main train station in Auckland is within a quarter kilometre of three "Big Four" Accounting Firms, several major legal firms, four major insurers, two major property services firms, two banks and the list goes on. It might not be as good in Wellington, but as mentioned above, it is less than a kilometre from Wellington Station to the very end of Lambton Quay.

In terms of the location not adding anything, it adds convenience - and that is very important when you are wanting to attract the self-loading freight, particularly given that congestion is virtually non existent in Hamilton and that parking is not all that expensive.

We are talking about whether or not it's easier to reopen the underground station, or site a new one in the open. One of those options will need to be pursued first in order to establish a basic system that can grow to the stage where a bigger proposal could be pursued. We all know Hamilton isn't going to go from nothing to a half billion dollar station project (which is what it would cost to pull down and rebuild two blocks worth of Hamilton's largest buildings). Personally I don't see that ever happening. Not even Auckland would attempt to tear down two blocks of buildings in its CBD for a PT project.

Except Geoff, Auckland did (granted, the two blocks were parking buildings and a bus terminal). In terms of the Hamilton idea, the most important thing isn't actually building the station, but it is ensuring that nothing gets in the way. You would probably only need to start looking at a new Hamilton Central Station once you are running roughly four trains per hour to Auckland (let us face it, you would not be starting off with Hamilton suburban services).

[geoff_184]

The biggest building that might need to be demolished would be a four story office block - nothing too particularly expensive.

The tallest is 7 or 8 stories, but this is the middle of Hamilton's shopping district and the site of a lot of retail shops and a mall. They won't be buying all those businesses and demolishing it all for a PT project. It would be in the hundreds of millions to achieve. It'll be far easier and cheaper to build a station at either end of the tunnel.

Geoff, Auckland's main station is right on Queen Street

Since our chosen arbitrary location is the middle of the main street, then Hamilton would have the closest station, more so than Auckland or Wellington.

You're mistaken if you believe that all the people pouring off trains at Britomart are going no further than 260m from the station.

In short, it is about relative distance.

260m from the middle of the main street is inconsequential to all but the absolute laziest people in society.

In terms of the location not adding anything, it adds convenience

Having a train drop you off 260m from the middle of the main street is extremely convenient. Few railway stations in New Zealand have ever been so well placed.

You would probably only need to start looking at a new Hamilton Central Station once you are running roughly four trains per hour to Auckland

Well that's never going to happen.

[john-ston]

The tallest is 7 or 8 stories, but this is the middle of Hamilton's shopping district and the site of a lot of retail shops and a mall.

If I recall, that tall building is on the south side of one of the relevant blocks - not something that couldn't be worked around.

They won't be buying all those businesses and demolishing it all for a PT project.

Who says they need to buy the businesses? Spotlight had to vacate its Panmure premises because Mountain Road was being realigned there, and it simply moved to Sylvia Park.

It would be in the hundreds of millions to achieve. It'll be far easier and cheaper to build a station at either end of the tunnel.

If the entire site was redeveloped at the same time, I would suggest it would cost around $100 million. If a new bus interchange were built simultaneously and the existing bus interchange redeveloped, your cost could be even lower.

You're mistaken if you believe that all the people pouring off trains at Britomart are going no further than 260m from the station.

A good portion are going no further than 260 metres from the station. If you are an employee at Pricewaterhouse Coopers, Deloitte, Ernst and Young, Russell McVeagh, Lumley, AMP, Vero, CBRE, Jones Lang LaSalle, Tower, Korda Mentha, the Bank of New Zealand, Westpac, among others, then you are going no further than 260 metres from the station. Of Auckland's five tallest office towers, three are within 260 metres of the station, and a fourth is just outside that radius.

260m from the middle of the main street is inconsequential to all but the absolute laziest people in society.

Or people in a smaller centre.

Having a train drop you off 260m from the middle of the main street is extremely convenient. Few railway stations in New Zealand have ever been so well placed.

If you are thinking in terms of Auckland and Wellington, that might be the case (although, as I pointed out, most of the major office buildings in Auckland are 260m away from a train anyway), but not so in a smaller centre.

Well that's never going to happen.

I can pretty much guarantee that within thirty years of trains starting between Auckland and Hamilton, there would be four services per hour during the morning peak.

[Kalelovil]

Your ability to walk or not does not change depending on which city you live in.

I would agree with you to a degree if we were talking about 700m+, but you're implying people in Hamilton are unwilling or incapable of even walking to their corner shop.
In which case the city should not be providing a commuter rapid transit system, it should be building bikeways and better footpaths.

Frankly, you are insulting Hamiltonians.

[john-ston]

I would agree with you to a degree if we were talking about 700m+, but you're implying people in Hamilton are unwilling or incapable of even walking to their corner shop.

Kalelovil, here are two options.

Option 1, for the sum of $10 a day, you get to park right outside your office and get a reasonably quick drive through as well. No need to wait in any stops in the rain.
Option 2, for the sum of $10 a day, you get to take a public transport option that will dump you at least 260 metres away from where you want to be. Not only that, but it is not all that fast, and you need to wait at the stop in the rain, and then walk in the rain to.

With option would you pick?

In which case the city should not be providing a commuter rapid transit system, it should be building bikeways and better footpaths.

No, it should be providing a commuter rapid transit system. Basic footpaths are enough, and bikeways would be pretty useless to the commuter rail market anyhow (the most likely commuter rail market for Hamilton would be semi-suburban runs to Cambridge, Huntly, Te Awamutu and Morrinsville).

Frankly, you are insulting Hamiltonians.

Not really; a Hamiltonian I had the pleasure of meeting a few months ago said that he walked fifteen minutes to work - only because the parking fifteen minutes away was free! To get free parking in Auckland, you need to be willing to make a fifteen minute bus trip, let alone a fifteen minute walk!

[Kalelovil]

If you are saying it is a matter of cost, then the council/NZTA/government could afford to give a much larger subsidy to the service if they didn't have to fund your plan of a large CBD redevelopment and underground railway station at the same time.

More likely however, it is matter of having a central railway station if is build where geoff_184 is proposing, or not having one at all if we stick rigidly to your proposal.

[john-ston]

If you are saying it is a matter of cost, then the council/NZTA/government could afford to give a much larger subsidy to the service if they didn't have to fund your plan of a large CBD redevelopment and underground railway station at the same time.

No, it isn't a matter of cost for Council/NZTA/Government. It is a matter of cost to the individual - that is why having a station 260m plus away from your place of work is nuts. Heck, once the CBD Loop is built, about the only thing in Auckland's CBD that will be more than 260 metres away from a train station will be the University.

More likely however, it is matter of having a central railway station if is build where geoff_184 is proposing, or not having one at all if we stick rigidly to your proposal.

Note that I would not consider constructing said station until there are actually services in Hamilton and capacity issues are eminent (which with a single platform single track station isn't going to be too hard to get to). The important thing is ensuring that such a thing can be built (i.e. don't allow office buildings on top of the station site.

[Kalelovil]

If you are saying it is a matter of cost, then the council/NZTA/government could afford to give a much larger subsidy to the service if they didn't have to fund your plan of a large CBD redevelopment and underground railway station at the same time.

No, it isn't a matter of cost for Council/NZTA/Government. It is a matter of cost to the individual - that is why having a station 260m plus away from your place of work is nuts. Heck, once the CBD Loop is built, about the only thing in Auckland's CBD that will be more than 260 metres away from a train station will be the University.

The individual will end up paying one way or another, most likely through higher train fares or higher rates.

[geoff_184]

If I recall, that tall building is on the south side of one of the relevant blocks - not something that couldn't be worked around.

It's directly over the railway.

Who says they need to buy the businesses?

The owners are not just going to give you the land. You'll be paying for it, as well as compensation for lost business.

A good portion are going no further than 260 metres from the station.

Train commuters are going to all parts of the CBD.

If you are thinking in terms of Auckland and Wellington, that might be the case (although, as I pointed out, most of the major office buildings in Auckland are 260m away from a train anyway), but not so in a smaller centre.

260m is as inconsequential in Hamilton as it is anywhere else.

I can pretty much guarantee that within thirty years of trains starting between Auckland and Hamilton, there would be four services per hour during the morning peak.

There will never be thousands of Auckland workers choosing to live in Hamilton. The route will struggle to maintain one train let along four an hour.

[john-ston]

It's directly over the railway.

You sure?

The owners are not just going to give you the land. You'll be paying for it, as well as compensation for lost business.

I'm not saying that the owners would give you the land, however, I am pretty sure that you would not need to compensate for lost business (especially if you did things over time).

Train commuters are going to all parts of the CBD.

Yes, but a good portion are going no more than 260 metres from the train station - remember, three of the five tallest office buildings in Auckland are within 260 metres of the train station.

260m is as inconsequential in Hamilton as it is anywhere else.

Option 1: Parking right by your office (and petrol) for $10
Option 2: Public transport, plus a hike for $10

What do you think the logical person will do

There will never be thousands of Auckland workers choosing to live in Hamilton. The route will struggle to maintain one train let along four an hour.

You don't need thousands to justify that level of service; 500 - 1000 would do (remember, you do have the rest of the Waikato to cover as well). With cheap housing down there, it will become an attractive option pretty much as soon as a public transport service is provided - I can trot out examples of where this has happened.....