Expressway between McKays Crossing and PekaPeka

[Chris Randal.]

Peter Fraser

Of course!

[matthew25187]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The American Marines could have been quite helpful in solving some of today's transport headaches.

American Army Engineers

We had a few hundred thousand American engineers here during World War II and they needed something to do. So they offered to build a motorway between Auckland and Wellington, upgrade the Napier- Taihape Road, build a Manawatu Gorge flyover and a few highways out of Wellington.

Sorry, we said, that won't be necessary - but thanks for the offer.

Planning disasters - there's been a few, NZ Herald

[greenwelly]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The American Marines could have been quite helpful in solving some of today's transport headaches.

American Army Engineers

We had a few hundred thousand American engineers here during World War II and they needed something to do. So they offered to build a motorway between Auckland and Wellington, upgrade the Napier- Taihape Road, build a Manawatu Gorge flyover and a few highways out of Wellington.

Sorry, we said, that won't be necessary - but thanks for the offer.

Planning disasters - there's been a few, NZ Herald

I think the stories about what the "Americans offered" get grander in each telling,

a) We did not have "a few hundred thousand" engineers, it was at most 100,000 troops in total spread over a number of years, with most here for between a few days or a few months,http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-1Hom-c14.html - They were here to prepare for combat in the Pacific, not to twiddle their thumbs building roads for a dinky British outpost.- also their was never more than 50,000 here at one time.

b) The most likely road they offered to build would have been Wellington's Transmission gully,given that around 1/2 the troops were stationed near Wellington at Mackay's Crossing - any talk about a Motorway between Wellington and Auckland and other are really pure speculation.
- They also has a few thousand in the Wairapapa, so there are also mutterings about the Rimutaka's as well

The most concrete example of the impact of the American's presence was middlemore Hospital's Jeep width corridors
http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/manukau-courier/4112954/Corridor-closing-is-a-drive-down-memory-lane

[john-ston]

I doubt that they would have offered to construct a motorway between Auckland and Wellington given that long distance motorways were largely unheard of then (even in the United States, you didn't see long distance motorways until the 1950s and the Eisenhower system). Transmission Gully does seem the most likely, and the only valid reason I could see for declining it (aside from Fraser being a complete and utter fool) was that the Centennial Highway had just been constructed.

[keg]

long distance motorways were largely unheard of then

Some bloke called Adolf commissioned a few in Europe in the 30s.

The most likely road they offered to build would have been Wellington's Transmission gully,given that around 1/2 the troops were stationed near Wellington at Mackay's Crossing

The most credible version that I've come across was for constructing a road (not a motorway) via Transmission Gully to improve access between the US military camps near Mackays Crossing and their military hospital at Silverstream. Whether this was ever anything more than a vague idea, I don't know - there seems to be lots of speculation and not much in the way of facts...

[pickle]

Have you ever driven the road on a Friday afternoon? Traffic is bad, so much so that I have to leave earlier in the morning and earlier in the afternoon to beat it. Driving at 100km/h in 5th gear is far more fuel efficient than driving in 1st gear all the way between paekakariki and waikanae. The new roads make sense if you going to talk about decreasing emissions. At least the dual carriageway will allow more cars through in peak times, with less cars starting and stopping (which uses the most fuel)

Not true, it will encourage more cars onto the road and will be full again in weeks and will just increase emissions.

[john-ston]

Not true, it will encourage more cars onto the road and will be full again in weeks and will just increase emissions.

Louis, induced demand doesn't always happen simply because you built a new motorway - you need to look at the context of the route. If such a route was built in the middle of Wellington, then you would have an induced demand issue, however, since this road is being built in a urban fringe/rural area, I would predict that this would be similar to the Albany to Puhoi motorway in Auckland - and that road hasn't suffered from congestion at all since its opening over half a decade ago.

[param1974]

Have you ever driven the road on a Friday afternoon? Traffic is bad, so much so that I have to leave earlier in the morning and earlier in the afternoon to beat it. Driving at 100km/h in 5th gear is far more fuel efficient than driving in 1st gear all the way between paekakariki and waikanae. The new roads make sense if you going to talk about decreasing emissions. At least the dual carriageway will allow more cars through in peak times, with less cars starting and stopping (which uses the most fuel)

Not true, it will encourage more cars onto the road and will be full again in weeks and will just increase emissions.

I have to disagree. Fact is there is not enough people living on the coast to clog a dual carriageway highway. Unless there is an accident every afternoon.

Driving faster decreases emissions, especially when you comparing it to stop and go crawling in first/second gear at 5km/h. ANybody knows that.

[Andrew]

Not in weeks, but the motorway will encourage further development out that way, which will increase the area's population.

The problem with motorway-enabled development is as follows:

A new motorway is lightly used and therefore very fast.
This encourages people to set up homes and businesses nearby.
This increases the amount of traffic using the motorway over around 5-15 years (assuming no oil shock)
Motorways cannot handle high volumes of traffic - they get congested and slow right down. People complain - the motorway was fast and it needs $millions spent on it to fix now as there is all that development built around it that it needs to support.

And of course lots of slow vehicles means lots of emissions.

Generally speaking, motorways and RTNs will induce demand as above. The difference is, RTNs (especially rail) are better at coping with the demand they induce.

[param1974]

Not in weeks, but the motorway will encourage further development out that way, which will increase the area's population.

It may encourage some, but lots of it is already coming without the motorway. Development is good. Problem with wellington is that there is nowhere else where it can really expand to. So either we build better infrastructure to suite the development which is coming, or we sit back ignore the problem and just allow the current roads to get slower and slower.

[john-ston]

It may encourage some, but lots of it is already coming without the motorway. Development is good. Problem with wellington is that there is nowhere else where it can really expand to. So either we build better infrastructure to suite the development which is coming, or we sit back ignore the problem and just allow the current roads to get slower and slower.

Furthermore, there is already the railway line with electrification heading as far as Waikanae, and it wouldn't surprise me if it reached Otaki or Levin in the coming decades. If a permanent two tiered approach was adopted, with Kapiti Coast trains running all stops to Plimmerton, then Porirua, then Wellington, then the train service would be potentially competitive with the car all day - that is provided that the station spacing was decent.

Also, once you start getting out as far as Levin, people start being discouraged from driving to their jobs in Wellington because of the distance - not many people would want to drive for over a hundred kilometres a day and would be more likely to use a public transport option.

[Andrew]

I suppose if the road is engineered towards general accessibility rather than trying too hard to cater for the peak time commuter, then that's ok.

If its existence is based on "reducing congestion" at peak, then I'd reiterate what I said before - that RTNs better cope with the demand they induce than motorways do.

[WellyWanderer]

Also, once you start getting out as far as Levin, people start being discouraged from driving to their jobs in Wellington because of the distance - not many people would want to drive for over a hundred kilometres a day and would be more likely to use a public transport option.

Very good point. I am a good example of that. I used to live in Wellington and recently moved to Paraparaumu. It's over 50kms to Wellington, so over 100kms return. When I lived in Wellington, my main means of transport was my car. I used it everyday to get to work and in the weekends. Now, my main means of transport is the train. I use it to get to work every day and also in the weekends, wherever possible. Because I use a monthly pass, my weekend travel costs no extra thereby encouraging me to use the train. My car is now mainly used for fortnightly trips to the supermarket or for occasional trips to places I can't get to by train. I've also started using buses in the weekend to get from Wellington railway station to Wellington suburbs. I was going to replace my car but because it now gets so little use I've decided to keep it for as long as it can continue getting WOFs. I'm healthier from all my walking to and from railway stations and have lost a lot of weight since moving to Paraparaumu.

[param1974]

Also, once you start getting out as far as Levin, people start being discouraged from driving to their jobs in Wellington because of the distance - not many people would want to drive for over a hundred kilometres a day and would be more likely to use a public transport option.

Very good point. I am a good example of that. I used to live in Wellington and recently moved to Paraparaumu. It's over 50kms to Wellington, so over 100kms return. When I lived in Wellington, my main means of transport was my car. I used it everyday to get to work and in the weekends. Now, my main means of transport is the train. I use it to get to work every day and also in the weekends, wherever possible. Because I use a monthly pass, my weekend travel costs no extra thereby encouraging me to use the train. My car is now mainly used for fortnightly trips to the supermarket or for occasional trips to places I can't get to by train. I've also started using buses in the weekend to get from Wellington railway station to Wellington suburbs. I was going to replace my car but because it now gets so little use I've decided to keep it for as long as it can continue getting WOFs. I'm healthier from all my walking to and from railway stations and have lost a lot of weight since moving to Paraparaumu.

Got to say I disagree. Although its 50kms to Wellington from Param, it’s the total commuting time one has to take into consideration. 15 minutes at least to get to the station in Paraparaumu. (Bus/Car/cycling whatever), then its at least a 55minute train ride to Wellington (On a good day), then another 15minutes commute from the station in Wellington to Courtenay Place, where I work. (Walking is 20minutes, bus 10-15minutes) Therefore I am looking at a door to door total commuting time of nearly 1.5 hours, 1 way. That a 3hour commute each day.

It takes me 45-50minutes to drive in from Waikanae, from my garage, to the Courtenay place parking.

But, I have to leave early, 6:15am. And leave work again by the latest 4:15pm to have the 45 minute run. Otherwise, it’s just over an hour. 1.5 hour trip on a day with bad traffic, and leaving in peak traffic.

I did the train for a few years, eventually the total commute just got too much. I have been driving in for about a year now, and don’t see myself switching back to the train any time soon. On top of that, the train is actually more expensive than my fuel cost.

[greenwelly]

On top of that, the train is actually more expensive than my fuel cost.

Only if you compare it with one off tickets and have free parking,

A monthly pass on the Capital connection will set you back $324 or ~$75 a week or $15 per day,
( Next year the EMU service will probably lower this cost to between $270-$300 based on current 10 stage fares) - which make it even cheaper
on the back of my envelope..
According to G Maps Waikanae to Courtenay Place is a roughly 60km trip, so 120km daily round trip @8l/100km, that s 8.2 litre, @1.90 a litre = a petrol cost of $15.78

[Andrew]

If I recall correctly from a previous conversation, param1974's car is pretty fuel efficient, and he often goes directly to social/sports activities straight from work. I can see how a car would suit his situation better, at least on some days of the week.

[param1974]

On top of that, the train is actually more expensive than my fuel cost.

Only if you compare it with one off tickets and have free parking,

A monthly pass on the Capital connection will set you back $324 or ~$75 a week or $15 per day,
( Next year the EMU service will probably lower this cost to between $270-$300 based on current 10 stage fares) - which make it even cheaper
on the back of my envelope..
According to G Maps Waikanae to Courtenay Place is a roughly 60km trip, so 120km daily round trip @8l/100km, that s 8.2 litre, @1.90 a litre = a petrol cost of $15.78

Yes fair enough. But I am only comparing fuel cost with train cost. I fill up about once a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. And it costs me roughly $65 per week. I average roughly 5.5litre per 100km, and I normally get an entire week of driving out of the tank, which includes weekends here and there.

If I use the capital connection I still have to pay for transports costs to the Waikanae station, $1 per trip for bus. Then if I am too lazy for the 20minute walk to courtnay place from the station, its another $1. Over 20working days, that’s an additional $40 I need to add to my total commuting cost. I see all that as a waist of money, especially if its taking me 1.5 hours to simply get to work.

Obviously there is also parking charges for driving,. And then there are also car service/WOF/licensing charges (But these I would have to pay anyway just for having a car). But the cost getting into town for me, from waikanae is far cheaper by car than train. The prices of the train would have to drop far below the current costs to make the train tempting and move me away from the convenience and faster commute by car.

[param1974]

If I recall correctly from a previous conversation, param1974's car is pretty fuel efficient, and he often goes directly to social/sports activities straight from work. I can see how a car would suit his situation better, at least on some days of the week.

Yea, Its pretty light. If I was driving a hummer I dont think we would be having this conversation.

PS: If I lived right next to the station in Waikanae, and I worked 5minutes from the station in Wellington. I too would probably catch the train.

[Matt L]

If I recall correctly from a previous conversation, param1974's car is pretty fuel efficient, and he often goes directly to social/sports activities straight from work. I can see how a car would suit his situation better, at least on some days of the week.

Yea, Its pretty light. If I was driving a hummer I dont think we would be having this conversation.

PS: If I lived right next to the station in Waikanae, and I worked 5minutes from the station in Wellington. I too would probably catch the train.

One question though, do you like leaving at 6:30 in the morning or would you prefer to leave later in the day. If you would prefer a longer sleep in then surely you have to measure commuting time based on when you want to travel rather than when you have to travel. If you like getting up earlier then it isn't an issue.

[param1974]

If I recall correctly from a previous conversation, param1974's car is pretty fuel efficient, and he often goes directly to social/sports activities straight from work. I can see how a car would suit his situation better, at least on some days of the week.

Yea, Its pretty light. If I was driving a hummer I dont think we would be having this conversation.

PS: If I lived right next to the station in Waikanae, and I worked 5minutes from the station in Wellington. I too would probably catch the train.

One question though, do you like leaving at 6:30 in the morning or would you prefer to leave later in the day. If you would prefer a longer sleep in then surely you have to measure commuting time based on when you want to travel rather than when you have to travel. If you like getting up earlier then it isn't an issue.

Dont mind leaving early actually. It gives me the opportunity to leave work earlier. But it was difficult in the beginning getting up so early, now its second nature. If I want to sleep in, which I still do now and again, I just must make sure I leave later. 8:30am is also a good time to leave. I prefer getting home earlier and spending time with the kids. Its nice to be able to sit down with them at 5:00pm for dinner.